The Great Apes

[The Panther]

(01-19-2020, 01:35 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-19-2020, 01:10 AM)The Panther Wrote:

(01-19-2020, 12:27 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-18-2020, 11:25 PM)The Panther Wrote:

(01-17-2020, 06:00 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-17-2020, 05:36 PM)The Panther Wrote:

(01-17-2020, 02:39 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-17-2020, 12:41 PM)The Panther Wrote:

(01-16-2020, 07:42 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-16-2020, 12:59 PM)The Panther Wrote: Sorry for another long comment, please be patient with me.
The thing is I'm not just using random pictures, nor am I making estimates out of thin air. My estimates were based on comparisons I made with the largest captive males on record, males that weighed 280 kg and 295 kg, so these weren't some random captive gorillas. I used to be like you, I used to doubt that gorillas could get very big and relied solely on scarce information on their size, but then I compared the biggest wild males to Samson a 295 kg captive Western gorilla, and I was shocked to see how similar those males were in body type to Samson. Though I do believe Samson was still a good amount heavier, he just wasn't significantly larger than them in bulk, and I made sure to use images of the gorillas in similar body positions so that the comparison works better. The other captive gorilla I used was M'bongo, he was actually a rare captive Eastern gorilla and he weighed over 280 kg at under 20 years of age. The image I used specifically was when he was a little bit smaller at 273 kg, and it amazed me just how close the biggest males especially Guhonda was to his body type, a lot closer than Samson. So again I made sure to use images of them in similar body positions, it wasn't like one was laying down and the other was sitting up or anything. I did two comparisons a few pages or so ago, so they're still here.

Like I said in my other comment, I understand that people make mistakes when estimating, including when using random pictures. That's why I chose to give them a size range instead of a definitive weight, because definitive weights are a lot harder to estimate and require an actual measurement. So seeing how similar their builds are to these 280 to 295 kg captive males, I was able to estimate their size range from 250 to 265 kg, probably even around 270 kg at the most. So these weights are for the absolute biggest Eastern gorillas, mainly the old males who are a minority compared to most of the males, who are still young and in their prime.

The weights given for Guhonda are most likely estimates without comparisons, so I tend to take such estimates with a grain of salt, whether it's high or low. I doubt they've ever weighed him and I doubt they would anytime soon, after all, dominant males especially dominant old males are the least likely to ever get sedated for research or medical reasons. Seeing how varied the estimations are for Guhonda, I seriously doubt you'll get anything conclusive from anyone. Now, I'm not saying my estimates are the absolute truth, but at least I had something to compare with, so that I could make sure my estimates were close to the truth rather than something from thin air.

There isn´t so much difference if estimation from photo is for instance 250 kg or 240-260 kg, it´s still unreliable way to estimate especially weight if there is nothing in the photo, which could be used in comparison so, that size of that other thing is known. With length or tallness it´s often a little bit easier, but still far from accurate.

For me things have been then quite opposite when looking what you tell. I mean, I used to estimate more (boldly) when younger and I was less skeptical. But with time I have become much more skeptic because so many mistakes by me and others. People tend to overestimate things they like. I asked now from people who should have much better overall understanding about gorillas than us, because I´m curious to know what kind of figures they give and with what kind of reasoning. They should know all these gorillas, like Guhonda and other famous ones and they know some weighed gorillas. So from these people we should be able to get some kind of understanding, because they actually have seen these gorillas in person and should know how massive for instance Guhonda is when compared to some others.

I haven´t got new message yet, but hopefully at some point today I will. It can take some time when asking from other people working there.

It's more reliable than just estimating them without a comparison. The problem is, you give them too much credit simply because they work there, what actually  makes you think they should know about each and every silverback gorilla's weight? Because dominant males are rarely if ever sedated, thus never weighed. I don't think seeing them in person is a better way to estimate than using images of actual measured specimens in comparisons, specimens who more likely than not have similar dimensions to these wild gorillas we're comparing them with. People like @GuateGojira have done great comparisons using photos, and give you a lot of perspective when you see them, which is the main goal of my comparisons, to give perspective and at least be able to put those gorillas in a specific weight range because of their similarities to those captive males.

The thing is, the people I would rather listen to are the people who actually weighed these specific gorillas, because at least they would be able to give a definitive weight for those specific males they measured. The problem is, the biggest males like Guhonda have pretty much never been weighed, and their estimates don't seem to do a lot of justice to them either, from 220 kg to 300 kg, nothing is definitive.

Like I said before, I never said my comparisons/ estimates were the absolute truth, but they're better than other baseless estimates from people who don't have anything to compare with and have never weighed the gorillas. To me, estimates are at their strongest if there's a comparison, or if someone knows the specifics which most of these people don't, after all, they've never weighed the gorillas in question. And I'm talking about big dominant males here, before you get confused, not solitary young males who are the most likely to be sedated and weighed.

Naturally I give a lot credit for people working with these animals if they tell something and give good reasoning. They can give much better estimations than people seeing gorillas only in photos and videos. Especially if/when they have seen some weighed individuals. There is room for error always even then, but for sure they have much more knowledge than us. I hope to get information from more than one person working there. Still people who have weighed gorillas give that normal range approximately 160-200 kg, not 220-300 kg.

With all due respect, that's kind of gullible. I understand they know a lot about the gorillas there, but just because they work there doesn't mean they know pretty much every single thing about gorilla weights, especially big dominant males who have never been weighed. 220 kg, 226 kg, 250 kg and 300 kg are the estimates I saw for males like Guhonda on the internet, I never said that was considered their average range. I want to do a little comparison, since you claimed weights around 190 kg are very large even for Eastern gorillas. I'll compare with a few big Eastern gorillas from three different populations.

Here's Shabani who is said to weigh 190 kg

*This image is copyright of its original author

Here's a very big Bwindi male

*This image is copyright of its original author

Shabani

*This image is copyright of its original author

Chimanuka

*This image is copyright of its original author

Shabani

*This image is copyright of its original author

Kwitonda

*This image is copyright of its original author

Same Shabani image as before

*This image is copyright of its original author

Guhonda.

*This image is copyright of its original author

I could bring more but that would take too much space and it's kind of unnecessary, these images are enough to give perspective. I did this because you were adamant that similar weights like 199 or 200 kg were very large even for an Eastern gorilla, but it's quite obvious the apparent 190 kg Shabani or males similar to him are far from the sizes of the biggest Eastern gorillas, and that is clear as day. I know you're relying on what is considered their size range and what has been recorded, but don't these very large Eastern gorillas at least make you question whether those weights given are even conclusive or not? Because to me it shows again just how limited and scarce information on Eastern gorilla sizes are. 

Now, how you take this is up to you, you might try to deny it which is fine, but my aim is to really give perspective and show people what I'm talking about.

To keep this short since I´m busy now. I´ve seen Shabani and all those photos you shared countless times. So I have written all before fully aware how these gorillas look in photos. As I have said before, when you don´t have two animals side by side, it´s very difficult to make very big conclusions and be sure, that correct.

That´s why I have now sent some emails and trying to find out what those people, who have better possibilities to make estimations or maybe even know some weights, say. You make now comparisons in way, which I don´t consider as too reliable or accurate. You can be in some close, but also far away. Hopefully we get some good information and then know better how close you are or are you at all. I can´t say it now, but I am curious enough to try to find out.

I understand that, but it's quite obvious they're much heavier than the 190 kg Shabani. Unless you think these Eastern gorillas are dwarfs (which I doubt you do), then there is no possible and logical way for Shabani to be anywhere near their weight. To me it's kind of denying the obvious to act like they're not much heavier than him, when it's quite clear. So again, unless you think those gorillas are dwarfs, then there's really no reason to doubt they're much heavier than Shabani.

Like I mentioned about sedating and weighing big dominant males being unlikely, here's an example.
https://www.gorilladoctors.org/three-hea...two-weeks/
"As Cantsbee is the dominant silverback, we did not want to seriously disrupt the group by sedating their leader if it was not absolutely necessary." 
Skip to the bottom to see the Cantsbee highlighted in green. This shows an example of why it's very unlikely that they'll sedate a big dominant male just to weigh him, or even for regular health checks

The most likely chance of big dominant males being weighed is after death. Like Senkwekwe who was unfortunately killed along with group members in 2007. I remember reading something that said he weighed 250 kg, which is possible because this was after death, so that means there was a good chance to potentially weigh his corpse.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4WTK...kg&f=false

He did indeed look like the very big silverbacks that are alive today.

*This image is copyright of its original author

One remark what comes to poor Senkwekwe. In photos after death he looks like started to fill with gasses, which from when decomposition starts. On that photo in which he is lifted on car, his body looks swollen, I wouldn´t touch that kind of carcass with a sharp object. There is at least one video, in which a lion bites a zebra carcass in similar state and it was like a "shitplosion". I actually asked about Senkwekwe too, because I´ve been curious to know how his weight was estimated or was it really weighed. I´ve never seen information saying, that he would have been weighed, so it looks like to be estimation by someone. Hopefully we can know it one day.

I also never claimed he was actually weighed, I just mentioned there was more potential for that due to him being dead, which was something much less likely to happen if he was alive. So it was more believable for that reason.

His body doesn't look too bad compared to living big males, he was not that far into decomposition. Here's what Guhonda looks like laying down.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

So Senkwekwe's body doesn't look too different from living big males, but I understand what you're saying. I agree, hopefully one day there will be full answers, and I hope we're not old and grey when that happens.

For me Senkwekwe looks like to be bloated by gasses, in that photo where he is on the car it´s looks more more obvious to my eyes. He wasn´t found right after shooting so it´s a bit difficult to know. I remembered one old article about him and managed to find it. There are some more details. Also in that is told, that they had some burial place for gorillas and they were carrying gorillas there, so it looks like, that he wasn´t weighed. After all they knew how he died and if decomposition had started, they most probably buried gorillas asap.

I hope, that sometime during next week something from Virunga park. Here that article telling what happened, when Senkwekwe and many other gorillas were killed:
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2015/oct/22/brent-stirton-best-photograph-dead-silverback-gorilla-congo-virunga

That's fine, even though to me he doesn't look too different from living males, which is my point, but OK. Yes, I know about the burial and even seen the grave site back in 2011 which was very nice of them, but I already explained why them weighing him was more believable than them weighing living big males. So my point was to highlight the possibility, hence why I used words like "potential" in that comment instead of acting like they definitively weighed him, which I understand was unlikely but not impossible. Anyway, we've had a pretty good conversation on this, which is great, hopefully full confirmed information comes out about this subject eventually but I won't hold my breath for it. I still strongly believe that the biggest Eastern gorillas are significantly bigger than the 190 kg Shabani or males similar to that, it's just that obvious, unless you think they're dwarfs, which is impossible. So until next time whenever that is, good day to you. Reply