Dholes (Cuon alpinus)

[Shadow]

(02-11-2019, 10:39 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(02-11-2019, 05:21 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(02-10-2019, 06:04 AM)Wolverine Wrote:

(02-09-2019, 08:24 PM)Shadow Wrote: Here is another video from interaction between elephant and dholes. Again dholes keep no noise! Just dodging and moving around in silence, while elephant is nervous/upset, whatever word anyone wants to use. 

Good find Shadow. This video confirms that shmedz's favorite kids writer Kipling was again right saying "that even Hathi the elephant give way to dholes"...

Here is one more, where elephant feels uncomfortable with dholes nearby, easy to see how upset it is here. It is quite clear, that old observations can be confirmed in many cases even though what comes to some things, more information is needed. It is really interesting to notice how strongly elephants do react to dhole presence. Also here dholes are dodging when needed, but otherwise quite nonchalant ans silent. 

You guys are reaching here IMO.
An Elephant being agitated is one thing, but to say this is proof of an Elephant giving way to Dholes is wrong. The Elephant is treating Dholes like it does any other animal it doesn't want in it's presence, it's chasing them off.

In regards to Dholes dictating Tiger presence, that has never been the case in the past 20 years in the Reserves with any real Tourist Traffic and Tiger numbers. Honestly, that's probably a conservative guess, I'd imagine that you couldn't find proof of this for longer then that. I know it's mentioned here and there from a few people, but these cases are interpretive and sometimes people like to embellish or see things in a "more exciting" way than it may of actually occurred. The fact remains that a Dhole has never contributed to an Adult Tiger death that we know of in the past 20 years. The reason I use the past 20 years as a barometer is because that's the timeline when Cameras became handheld and footage began to be easier to share. I'm sure a large pack can pester and even hurt a Tigress or young Tiger but it's something that is obviously extremely rare. What's not rare is Tigers hunting Dhole, running them off or dominating them in general.  

I appreciate all of these accounts and the hardwork that was done by these trailblazers but where Wildlife Observation is today has far surpassed anything seen in modern history. We follow individual cats from their birth till death and most of us do it from behind a screen. Then on top of that, we have open forums that can confirm dates, lineage, travel patterns and history, conflicts, etc. You can now ask questions to guides who have more knowledge and experience than anyone you can name. They literally live every day with these creatures, most of them grew up right next to them and continued to show others what these animals are like every day for 6-8 months out of the year, I think we should really appreciate the accessibility we now have to these animals. Anyone who's been involved since the old AVA days can confirm that we've come a long way since since those L VS T debates based off of the same 3 studies and Everland clips right? 
Think about the demand we put on the "burden of proof" now a days? Imagine any of these accounts became public on FB or IG now, what would the reaction be? We'd want video clips, images, time of year, location and zone, other eye witness confirmations, etc. Even then we'd still argue about what we actually saw.

So in closing, my opinion is Tigers dominate Dholes, no questions asked. Can a dhole pack run off an unsure or satiated Tiger, Yes I think they can. Can a Dhole pack attack and Kill an adult healthy Tiger ready to defend at any cost , No I don't think so.

What comes to it, what I am trying to find out, you and some others all the time seem not to understand the point. It is not about it, that dholes would dominate tigers. I don´t know how many times it should be said until it could be finally understood :)

It is about it, that what can be found what comes to dhole reputation. Which is, that it can cause a lot of fear in prey animals, it can make even elephants to feel uncomfortable. And then most "gray area" is, that in some cases even make tigers back off and in most extreme cases might even kill tigers sometimes.

I understand, that tiger is for many favorite animal and even mentioning, that it can be sometimes in trouble is causing a lot of emotional feedback. Understandable. But for me and I think that to some others it is time to time very interesting to look closer things, which are controversial and unclear. There are many opinions, but when shaking things a little bit, time to time something new can be also found, which no-one have noticed or haven´t even wanted to look closer.

What comes to dholes, I had never looked them so closely like now, so this has been very interesting. To see opinions, but more important to have many people to search and share sources, photos and video footage. For instance it was a little surprise for me to see how uncomfortable even elephants can be when dholes are there nearby. Not giving way, but obviously nervous for some reason. Dholes then again are quite comfortable, of course dodging when needed, but no fear there. Then again that one footage where other gaurs just stand aside and leaving mother gaur alone to defend calf. What comes to tigers, of course we can see, that tigers are in normal conditions having upper hand. BUT then again, dholes aren´t just running away, not even when some of them is killed, they still in some cases run around tiger, they are cautious, but no panic there. 

Then this last video, which I shared and is familiar to many. It is really interesting, when looking at it closer, if host there is describing as it really happens, it is only video, where can be seen possible challenge for tiger. But that footage is edited and that´s pity. 

But anyway we have many opinions, hopefully also more cases and facts can be found, when digging in. Most important still is to find and try to gather all known information for everyone to check themselves. it is always nice to find something and see, that there is someone else, who saw something for the first time :) But maybe it is time to go to library soon, from internet it is quite difficult to find some books.

Reaching, for sure, that´s what curiosity to learn makes :) Reply