Size comparisons

[Pckts]

Quote:I don’t know what you mean by downgrading. I am simply pointing out to you that this jaguar is the same as the 148kg record which was being discussed earlier because looking through your posts you seem to be unaware of this fact. You’ve posted this video a few times indicating this is a different specimen to the 148kg record and stating it was unbaited and empty for some reason. That is incorrect – that is the mistake I was referring to. Also, the video you’ve been posting has the important bit about stomach content edited out (making your unsubstantiated claim that it was with empty stomach also a mistake).

For example you erroneously state this jaguar was empty stomach and then later also suggest there are separate records of 142kg and 148kg. You are incorrect.

Correct, that was my mistake.
I saw two different weights, I didn't see Rafael in the Video and it was captured by snare with no bait present from what I could see.
Thus my assumption was incorrect in assuming they were 2 different captures.
In regards to "important stomach content" there is nothing stated there other than it's looks fat but not full and I have already stated that is how they look most of the time, I'd be happy to find many more who have said the same if you don't believe me. 

Quote:You also posted lots of incorrect weights for jaguars taken by Tony Almeida in the "modern weights of jaguars" thread without any source. Those were also mistakes as already pointed out.

I have already responded to this on the "modern weights and measurements thread.

My Response below
"The images and weights were provided via a "big game" page which has been discussed here prior. Some inaccuracies could very well be listed.


But not all of them are inaccurate 

mrs. tomas fernandez with a record jaguar ; skull 20 8/16-Correct 

milton meirelles shot this monster with a skull of 20 2/16-Correct

monster 127kg jaguar hunted by hector cuellar 279 pounds- Incorrect 118kg *No skull size measured, shown as 127kg*

knut bellinger with monster 257 pounder- Incorrect  actually 108kg not 116kg

330lb local with jaguar RECORD shot by ken vaughn- Inconclusive *No Weight Provided*


Now, I ask you how do you know each image is the corresponding Jaguar mentioned in the Book?
Do you have page references or are you assuming each belongs to that account?"


The Facebook page I'm speaking of is here https://www.facebook.com/pg/game.animals/photos/?tab=album&album_id=390531127634853&ref=page_internal.... It's called Game Animals of the Past and Present
This has been discussed here before, I didn't feel the need to supply the same source again since it brings a bit of animosity from some posters here so I try not to advertise them if I can help it.
Were some of the weights incorrect, yes if those are the same cats as mentioned in the scan. But the scores were accurate on not all the weights are far off nor are all of the weights inaccurate. But again, we're talking about Jaguars of the Past compared to Jaguars of the present. Jaguars of the Present have already easily exceeded all weights from Almeidas scans. I also want to ask if Almeida was actually on hand for all of these captures and weights?

Quote:But I don’t see any reason to believe the competition would be particularly intense. I mention science because my reasoning is based on well established concepts of evolutionary biology and animal behaviour. It is well known that sexual dimorphism is strongly linked to inter-male competition – when there’s a lot of fighting between males they get a lot bigger than the females. Here the jaguar normally ranks the lowest among the big cats leaving aside the snow leopard

 
I'm not sure what more you need to see, Jaguars fight often in the Pantanal and the bear the scars and accounts to prove it. 
You are right about males increasing in size when competition is abundant and the Pantanal is no different. The size difference between males and females is very similar to any other big cat.
Males can range 80-150kg females can range from 65-100kg but females in the Pantanal are very large and I've definitely seen the largest female compared to a male there than any other big cat I've seen. 
But to assume that is the only factor that determines competition would be incorrect. 
Here's a few examples of the sexual dimorphism in size:

*This image is copyright of its original author

You can look at Kanha as the perfect example.
This is Umarpani, said to be the largest male in all of Kanha, he's dominated Mukki and killed off 2 very large males in the process.
The first video is him dominating his 193kg male sub adult son or possible son...*debatable who his actual father is*
Body Measurements for MV2
Nose to base of tail , 205 cm, tail 92 cm Height 125 cm 
"Over the Curves Protocol"

I'm having a hard time finding the video but I will and I'll post it when I do. In the video you get to see Umarpani mating with a large female, in no way does he dwarf this female the way the jaguars I've shown above dwarf their opposites but even so, we already know Umarpani is arguably the most dominate male seen in Kanha from recent history and is an extremely large male on top of that. Like I stated before, Kanha is also home to a very large Tiger density and considered to be one of the more violent parks when it comes to dominate males fighting but yet my self, Pantherinae and others who've seen Kanha females first hand have said that they are extremely large, some have even been confused for males at times.
This is a direct contradiction to the idea that competition must be directly related to a huge sexual dimorphic difference.  

Quote:Secondly, studies on the spatial organization of jaguars suggest they have very loose territories with little monopolization of females – this would also be an indicator of less inter male competition because more rigid territories and greater monopolization of females usually results in more fighting for breeding rights. Jaguars also generally occur at lower densities than other big cats which may also translate to less competition.

Jaguars also live in an area that is impossible to mark, they don't set up boundaries or protect territory the same way since their landscape is ever changing.
Sand bars that are there one year are gone the next, trees fall and wash away. There is no need to live by the same rules as an area that offers a completely different habitat. 

In regards to Density, this is once again dates back to what I said about their numbers increasing astronomically with direct correlation to Caiman numbers increasing.
Like I've already stated, in the meeting of the 3 rivers alone you have at least 65 confirmed individuals not including unidentified cats which are spotted every season. In the Pantanal you have the highest density of Jaguar and with in the Amazon and Pantanal you have up to 3,000 Jaguars at this time *if I remember correctly* and hopefully continuing growth. 

Quote:The lack of additional secondary sex characteristics present in the other 3 big pantherines (mane, dewlap, ruff) but not the jaguar also makes the jaguar less dimorphic and indicates less intense competition.  

Sexual Dimorphism isn't a +1 scenario, some species show more outer difference like color or feather/fur changes while others show size dimorphism and others show a little of everything. There is no correlation to more color or brighter longer feathers/fur to living  a more or less competitive life. Nor is that rule true for every sub species of these cats.
For Instance: 
Dewalps are far less prevalent in Persian, Indian, Sri Lankan, Congo Basin and Amur Leopards. In fact, they seem to be more constant in areas where Kills are tree stashed than where they aren't stashed as much. 
Ruff, many Tigers have little to no ruff, in fact, their ruff or mane has been shown to be more individual based than location based.
You also have no correlation to a ruff leading to a more competitive area. Considering one of the most competitive parks in India is ruled by 2 males who have almost no ruff (Umarpani and Chota Munna) I can also name more throughout Kanha and all over C. Indian Parks if need be. 
Manes do show an advantage when females chose a mate but they also show a significant difference depending on location. For instance, in the Ngorongoro Crater they have a mane that covers their entire shoulder while in the neighboring Ngorongoro Reserve and Serengeti, Lions tend to not have a mane that covers the shoulder.
 

Quote:Lastly, in species where males fight a lot, there is greater senility – meaning the males age early and live short lives. But a lot of male jaguars seem to reach very old age in the wild, quite a bit older than males of the other big cats. For example, one of the big males taken by Tony Almeida was estimated to be over 20 years old in prime Pantanal territory based on previous encounters and his physical condition. Another male captured for study in the Llanos was aged at 20 years old by researchers. And recently the Panthera researchers posted about a 15 year old and a 19 year old male still holding territories in the Pantanal.

Again I will name Kanha and I will again use individuals with in Kanha to dispel this claim.
At this very moment, Munna is now over 17 years old and still holding down territory while even making his way into the main tourism zone from time to time.
Wagdoh of Tadoba is another example of this, he's also 17 years and still fighting and holding territory. 
I have little doubt I couldn't present some exceptional examples of this in Leopards and Lions as well.
Also remember, estimating age of a Cat without proper documentation throughout ones life is simply an estimation with no actual proof to back it. 
Unlike the Cats I've named which have all been monitored throughout their lives. Now if these researchers have followed this exact Jaguars for 20 years, than I agree to their claim, if not, then there is major holes in the argument. 

And in the N. Pantanal and more specifically, meeting of 3 Rivers at this very moment, there are definitely not any Jaguars close to 20 years old, the oldest ones have all been displaced for the most part and it's ruled by Marley, Balwin, Tusk, Reo, Juru, Brother Xando and Borro and two other Big Males I saw to name a few are all far younger than 12 years old so I'm again not sure how outliers some how represent an entire species. Reply