About methods, measurements, errors, baits and the art of debating

[GuateGojira]

I made the change @tigerluver.

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Hello guys. @peter and @tigerluver, I will like to post something about the length of Amur tigers by the S.T.P.

New evidence presented by @WaveRiders suggest that in fact, Amur tigers were measured "over curves", this came from the email of Dr Miquelle, specifically where he says that they pressed the tape in all points. However, the email also state that the animal was put in a straight position, which I found very contradictory.

Other thing, I have found a few other pictures of Amur tigers been measured, and the taped is by no means pressed in the body, but only put loosely over the body, and the tiger is not in straight line. I possess 5 pictures and NONE presents the specific method described by Dr Miquelle. Is possible that all these people measured in they own forms? I leave the question open.

A good fact is that there is no such thing like "crystal clear facts", because the theory in the books is sometimes different that the practice in the field. In this point, I think that the effort of Wave is somewhat futile, because it doesn't matter how many books are available on the matter, if at the end people in the field accommodate they work with the circumstances. Even the records of great cats "between pegs" presents they own "fishy" circumstances. There is no such thing as "100% perfect straight line" or "100% perfect over curves" method, it all depends of the people that employs it and the present witnesses are the only ones able to make a "fair" judgement. Our statements about them, at the end, are just "good guesses".

I have a video where the height of a female Amur tigers is taken, and it was not make "over curves" nor "straight line". The measurement is just taken "by sections" of the arm, from the paw to the point of the shoulder. In my opinion, this underestimate the real height of the animal. So, this makes me doubt about the accuracy of some of those measurements.

Is not a secrete that I based my original statements of the Amur tiger measurements in the document of Kerley et al. (2005). If you read correctly the document, the paragraph suggest the use of the method of Nowell & Jackson (1996) and the book of "Terrestrial Mammals" is just the source for the quantity of measurements to take, but not specifically or only for cats. However, the personal email of Waveriders and the 5 different pictures and the video, suggest me that those measurements were taken with different methods, and not with "standardized" methods like the "ideal" world that Wave wants to present (no offense, ok?). I think, at the end, that "over curves" is the best choice for Amur tigers, taking in count the variability of methods that I have saw with them. I will change this in my Amur tiger tables, which open the opportunity of add new weights, if someone have a few over there.

Now, about the Nepal tigers, Dr Sunquist is quite clear, they were measured in straight line, and his description in his email to me, Wave, BoldChamp and Tiger Lover, is the same. Is quite comparable as the method "between pegs", and taking in count that the animals were not stretched like the dead ones, I guess that the results were probably the same.

About the Nagarahole tigers, Dr Sunquist was there with the first male and the only female, and he told to Wave that he saw no difference in the form of measuring. So, it is obvious that they used the same method, and this don't contradict the statements of the book of Riney (1982). Dr Karanth mention "along the curves", but in any point he says that he pressed the tape in all points nor that he followed all the curves on the back. A tape along the curves of a cat in straight line give a very straight result, specially with unstretched specimens (I have videos of that now). And taking in count the testimony of Dr Sunquist, which was actually there and saw the entire procedure, I can conclude that Dr Karanth used the same method and that the 5 males and 7 females measured in these two areas where taken in the form described by Dr Sunquist.


I am going to found the video and you can tell me if I leave it here, or in another topic.

Greetings to all. Reply