Tiger Predation

[Pckts]

(02-15-2024, 09:14 AM)peter Wrote: ABOUT POSTING, RULES AND BANS

PC and Apex were involved in a debate. It started somewhere, moved to the tiger thread and continued in 'Amur Tigers' and 'Tiger Predation'. Clashes of this nature often affect the climate. Members noticed and we noticed. After some time, I asked them to call it a day. It had no effect. I asked again, offered an advice and, to make sure, added a warning. This time, Apex acted. Meaning he took a two week break. PC continued as if nothing had happened, meaning he's not that interested in rules, mods and good advice. Also meaning he qualified for a ban. Not two, but four weeks. If he returns and ignores a mod again, it's curtains. 

Apex has been involved in quite a few debates. He knows we're not too keen on them over here, but enters one at every opportunity. Every time, the result is similar in that it affects the climate and every time a member pays. Apex eluded the ban dance, but this was the last time.  

As for those asking questions (Pantherinae and Spalea). You'll find one part of the answer in the rules section. Another part is on this page. Meaning it's right in front of your eyes. You would have noticed if you would have taken the trouble to read a few posts, that is.  

This forum is about the natural world. Good info is the aim. We don't mind the occasional debate, provided you use arguments and sound reasoning. Remember it's about respect. Respect for good info, respect for the rules of engagement and respect for the one you're debating. If it doesnt work out as expected, you can agree to disagree, withdraw or, when rules have been violated, inform the mods. They, no matter what, have the last word. Any member ignoring rules and mods will be warned. If the warning is ignored, a ban wil follow.  

As to the debate that resulted in problems. According to PC, a bull gaur about to die informs all tigers in the neighbourhood. This is the protocol tigers and gaurs agreed on a long time ago. As tigers usually are the first to arrive at his remains, it seems they killed the gaur. Not so, PC says. Apex, on the other hand, suggests even tigresses routinely kill bull gaurs for breakfast. Both are wrong and if they aren't, they're scratching the edges of reality. 

The answer to all questions about tigers and gaurs is in recent articles and observations of hunters, rangers, villagers, tourists and photographers. Biologists usually need years to get to conclusions, whereas others write about an incident they witnessed on a particular day. All that is without the countless exceptions (referring to differences between individuals and differences between regions). Meaning you have to do quite a bit of reading to get to a conclusion. As this is a time consuming process, we don't mind members discussing incidents, as long as they remember there's a difference between an incident and a pattern. 

There are many authentic reports about tigers hunting large herbivores in southeast Asia, PC, and I mean many. That's still without 'specialists' hunting big herbivores only. Read the books of Bazé, Berg and countless others. That, Apex, doesn't mean every adult tiger is able to hamstring every large herbivore at will. The outcome of a struggle depends. There are reliable records of 'specialists' killed by gaurs and wild buffaloes. Find reliable accounts before getting to a conclusion. If you read them, chances are you'll conclude just about anything is possible in a struggle between two large animals. Professional hunters come out on top more often, but in the end anything is possible.   

Same (referring to reading in order to get to an overview and an opinion) for interactions between tigers and bears. In most regions of southeast Asia, tigers and bears coexist. Tigers not often hunt them, but there are bear 'specialists' in most districts and regions. Himalayan black bears, however, are not on the menu in southeast Asia. The main difference between that region and the Russian Far East is in the number of bears. As a result of the abundance of bears in the Russian Far East, tigers and bears meet much more often than in southeast Asia. Bears are professional scavengers, meaning they'll use any opportunity to feed on a kill, including tiger kills. Every now and then, clashes erupt. Although the outcome differs, tigers win most fights. They have to if they want to survive (referring to the long and harsh winters and the very real risk of energy deficits and starvation), meaning the local conditions resulted in selection over time. Culture, PC. In contrast to tigers living in northern India, Nepal, Bhutan and even Vietnam, tigers in the Russian Far East (learned to) hunt Himalayan black bears. According to those who know, tigers hunt Himalayan black bears of all ages and sizes. For more info, read recent articles written by Russian biologists. There's a nice series about Himalayan black bears (referring to You Tube) in which Kolchin features. He knows about tigers and bears and that's an understatement. 

Male Amur tigers occasionally hunt brown bears up to the size of an adult female. Most of them are experienced old males, but immature tigers and young adults also are involved. Tiger 'Pavlik' was arrested for a violation when he was in his teens. After rehabilitation and a promise to stay out of trouble, he was released. The collar said he killed both male Himalayan black bears and female Ussuri brown bears. This although he wasn't full-grown. Recent information suggests there are quite many young adult males occasionally hunting bears. 

Do adult male Amur tigers and Ussuri male brown bears clash as well? The answer is affirmative, but only very few seem to result in casualties. At least, not in the period 1992-2016. A year later, in 2017, a large male brown bear suddenly disappeared after harrassing tigress 'Rachel' and her cubs for a prolonged period of time. It happened in the territory of biologist Batalov. Bear posters said the bear was shot, but Batalov, as experienced as they come, is convinced the big bear was killed and eaten by male tiger 'Ochkarik'. Five years later, in November 2022, in the same region, a male brown bear with a palm width of 18 cm (!) was killed by male tiger 'Odyr'. This time, experienced rangers found evidence of a (prolonged) fight in the snow. A few years later, 'Odyr' apparently harrassed a hibernating male bear. For some reason, the attempt was aborted. The bear left to hibernate elsewhere. Some posters think the size of the bear might have been a factor.      

Are both incidents indicative? Although most authorities think a tiger has the best chance in a fight, male tigers and male brown bears seem to disagree. Meaning they try to avoid discussions. For good reasons, as even a draw, days later, can result in severe infections and injuries. In autopsy reports of male tigers found dead in the period just before the Siberian Tiger Project started, you'll find descriptions of (paw) injuries that could have been caused by (brown) bears. One has remember a male tiger, faster and more agile than an adult male brown bear, is able to leave a fight not going his way. Not always true for a male brown bear. Meaning there's statistics (referring to fights with a fatal outcome) and reality (unknown, but debilitating injuries preventing a tiger to hunt) and also meaning we don't know.

Apex posted a lot of (good) information about interactions between Amur tigers and brown bears. The info suggests relations between male tigers and male brown bears could be more complicated than we think. There are quite many videos showing male tigers and male brown bears visiting the same 'post office' (tree) to investigate, and leave, scent marks. There are videos showing male tigers patrolling their turf and large male brown bears following them from a distance. The large male tiger known as 'The Beast' and the large male brown bear visiting the same tree in Anyuisky most probably were well aware of each other. Apart from the two incidents mentioned above, however, I never read anything about a serious fight between an adult male tiger and an adult male brown bear. Meaning adult males of both species are able to coexist. Clashes do occur every now and then, but close proximiy doesn't seem to be the main reason. If anything, a fight seems to be personal. Meaning the protocol could have been violated. 

As to clashes between male tigers and male bears. The outcome of a fight between adult males of the same species often is determined by age and size. Most posters think it isn't any different in fights between males of different species. As Ussuri male brown bears are significantly heavier than adult male tigers (at the level of averages), bear posters think this advantage is the main reason male tigers try to avoid fights. Judging from the size of both male tigers and the male brown bears they killed (see above), however, this doesn't seem to be the case. At least, not in both incidents described above. Other observations, however, suggest a large male brown bear does have an advantage. Meaning the information is contradicting and also meaning we don't know enough to get to a conclusion. We do, however, know male tigers at times are prepared to confront even a large male brown bear. Their ability in a fight, however, doesn't mean a clash is a formality. Far from it. All in all, I'd say the actual behaviour of both (mutual avoidance) is the best source of information.      

What I'm ultimately saying is a good post isn't a result of a hunch or reading a few pages here and there. If you really want to get to a conclusion on a specific issue, it's imperative to read as many articles and books as you can. It's the only reliable way to confirm or reject a 'hypothesis'. When you do, you'll quickly notice biologists not seldom (seem to) contradict themselves and each other. We don't expect members to produce interesting posts time and again, but we do expect them to respect a few basic rules and one of them is to stay away from firm statements. 

Both PC and Apex have some credit, but that doesn't mean they can do as they please all the time. PC seems to invest most of his time in questioning just about everything these days. Not seldom, it results in scratching the edges. I'm not saying he's involved in misinformation, but he's closing in at times. That's still apart from the deteriorating climate and the decision to ignore rules and mods. Apex isn't involved in misinformation, but the way he tends to present information not seldom results in a, ehh, somewhat distorted view. And plenty of animosity. I asked him to change this habit, but he too decided to ignore the advice offered. Over the years, it resulted a quite a few 'debates', a lot of problems and even more scalps. It stops here and now. Meaning I'm done investing (a lot of) time in solving problems that can easily be avoided.  

Are we asking too much? Most members of Wildfact are interested in wild lions. They debate all the time and it resulted in a lot of interesting threads. The lion section generates much more traffic than all other sections combined and many members (and readers) interested in lions told us the lion section is the best they know of. By a decent margin. There have been a few problems here and there, but members and mods usually quickly dealt with them. Meaning it can be done.

Your bias and lazy moderation has directly led to numerous good posters leaving and it has now led to another. You’re solely responsible for what this once thriving forum has become. 

And to the other posters here still chugging along, good luck and I wish you all the best. I hope you all continue to invest some time into learning about the natural world, I know I will. 

I’m out! Reply