Tiger Predation

[peter]

ALL

I've been following the proceedings for some time and decided for a post. The reason is the exchange in this thread resulted in animosity. Not what we want. After discussing a few issues in this post, the thread will be closed for a week.  

PC

After an eventful start, you developed into a good poster. For this reason, you was offered moderation a few years later. You declined, because you prefer posting. Most of your contributions were, and are, much appreciated. Some time ago, you decided to join another forum to participate in lion and tiger debates. I don't know if it had an effect, but I did notice a few small changes when you returned. In contrast to a few years ago, you seem to approach members in a somewhat different way. I also noticed you, more often than before, question information most of us consider as reliable. What happened to the man who informed us about the wild jaguars, lions and tigers he saw?

A few days ago, in this thread, I thought I saw you leaving a bait. It didn't take Apex long to respond and he wasn't the only one. The 'debate' that followed, as usual, didn't result in new insights or new information. It resulted in a bad climate. My advice is to take a break from posting. Ask yourself a few questions. If the motivation is still there, let us know. You're always welcome.    

APEX

A few years ago, your posts about tigers and bears in the Russian Far East in Carnivora were noticed. As the information you found was both new and interesting, I invited you to post about tigers and bears in the tiger extinction thread. The condition was good info, reliable sources, no animosity and readable posts. You delivered in all respects, but your posts also resulted in criticism. The main reason is your posts are somewhat one-sided. Not a few of them suggest adult male Amur tigers are close to invincible. I'm not saying bears are dismissed as amateurs, but some think it's quite close and they have a point.  

Our advice is to use a somewhat wider scope. Also add a bit of salt. Information can be reliable, but that tells you something about the way it was collected. It doesn't mean it's always true all the time everywhere. Example. 

While it's true adult male brown bears avoid kills of (adult) male tigers in the Russian Far East, it doesn't cover all of it. You know the big brown bear robbing tigress 'Rochelle', after he left her, also confiscated kills of the father of her cubs. Although Batalov is sure 'Ochkarik' killed 'Chlamyda', others doubt his conclusion. They have a point, as Batalov didn't produce hard evidence. His conclusion is a result of deduction. Batalov's conclusion carries a lot of weight (he's an authority on tigers and bears), but deductions are different from evidence. 

There's another example of a male brown bear robbing a male tiger (in Sichote-Alin). In a video I recently found, it was stated the bear involved had plenty of options. In spite of that, he preferred the kills of the tiger. It continued for quite some time. Those observing the bear stated the tiger didn't respond. Although the video is a bit older, the information seems to be authentic. I'll post the link in the tiger extinction thread soon.   

What I'm saying is there is a difference between science and reality. Things that didn't happen in a period in which researchers collected information in a specific district can happen in another district. It could be that brown bears bears, even adult males, avoid kills of male Amur tigers in 'normal' conditions, but it's also possible there are exceptions. Bears also can change their behaviour in times of need. Biologists do facts, not something else. Factors like circumstances and individuality, for instance, often are left out of the equasion. The main reason is it's impossible to get to valid conclusions in these departments.  

As to tigers and bears in southern Asia. There's plenty of evidence of tigers deliberately hunting (sun, sloth and Himalayan black) bears. It's, however, also true sloth bears and, in particular, Himalayan black bears are able to stand their ground in a confrontation. In 'Big game hunting in Nepal' (E.A. Smythies, Calcutta, 1942), you can find many accounts of interactions between Himalayan black bears and tigers. Back then, in that part of Nepal, the 'ring' was used to hunt big game. These 'rings' often had both Himalayan black bears and tigers. When the 'ring' was closed, they met. Not seldom, the hunters saw tigers (most of them females and cubs) chased by female Himalayan black bears with cubs. 

But I also found plenty of reliable reports about tigers, and tigresses, killing sloth bears in northern India in that period (about a century ago) and tigers in the Russian Far East today habitually hunt Himalayan black bears (including adult males). 

What to make of all that? The first conclusion is information collected by hunters and biologists often is inconclusive, if not contradictory. Could be a result of conditions or sample size, but individuality seems to be an important factor as well. The second conclusion is there seems to be a difference between tigers in the Russian Far East and their relatives in southern Asia. In southern Asia, few tigers hunt (sloth) bears. In the Russian Far East, bears are an important, albeit often seasonal, food source. The third conclusion is there's a marked difference between tigers and tigresses. Nearly all bear specialists in southern Asia are males, but in the Russian Far East some tigresses learned to hunt bears as well. 

Is there enough to get to sound conclusions? To a degree, but Linda Kerley concluded just about anything is possible between tigers and bears.  

I like your contributions, but it's important to remember it's difficult to get to general conclusions at the best of times. This is especially true when two species living in close proximity compare in many respects. As to specialists. A male tiger developing into a bear specialist will progress over time, meaning he will try to hunt larger bears as he gets more experienced. Odds say this development most probably has a temporary character. One day, chances are a bear specialist will meet a bear with a degree in tigers. He might escape with a few injuries, but it could also be the end. Same for a male brown bear who learned to follow and displace tigers.   

One thing I noticed time and again is there's no love lost between captive tigers and bears. Captive Amur tigers in particular have a reputation in this respect, but the 'Beast' and the mighty male brown bear using the same scratch tree in the Russian Far East (referring to the great photograph you posted in the thread 'Amur Tigers') seemed to get along. Meaning you just never know. 

What we do know is tigers and bears have co-existed for a long time in the Russian Far East. If left in peace, they most likely will continue in the way they did. If you focus on a few aspects, like some of us do, you might see the otherwise invisible pendulum swinging from one side to the other over time. Although these swings seem to favour some more than others, the result nearly always is something we would describe as a balance. Tigers didn't decimate bears and bears didn't decimate tigers. They co-exist and learned to avoid problems. The Russian Far East only changed a century ago, when humans entered.                            

LAND AND SEA

You recently contacted Sanjay. In your PM, Balam and Black Jaguar were discussed as well. Like all others that contacted us about Balam, you seem to have an opinion about the reason she left. Our advice is to stay away from opinions if the information needed is lacking. Read the last part again. 

Balam, as you no doubt noticed, was made welcome and encouraged in every possible way. The threads she and Dark Jaguar created are informative and interesting. Like many good posters, she initially got a lot of support. After some time, criticism emerged. This seems to be the fate of most well-informed posters. Mods always 'protect' members with access to good information, but it doesn't seem to be decisive. Personality is. 

Informationqualitywise, Dark jaguar most definitely compared to Balam. He wasn't confronted with criticism and his posts were appreciated right until the end. One day, he just left. 

What to say? Members with good info often are motivated and active when they join. When their mission is completed, they leave.   

PREDATOR

We heard a few things, but over here every new join starts with a clean sheet. Remember Wildfact is moderated. Meaning things can quickly change. Our advice is to read the rules section and to stay away from insult and all the rest of it. 

COPTERS

Yes, you was noticed as well. Like 10 years ago, the advice is to visit your grandmother. And bring her some flowers this time.     

CONCLUSION

Thread closed for a week. When you return, remember 'Tiger Predation' is different from 'Members Predation'. Reply