There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
04-02-2015, 06:39 AM( This post was last modified: 04-02-2015, 06:48 AM by peter )
PIKUNOV AND KRECHMAR
The remarks on strength are from authorities. Pikunov said both are equal in tooth and claw. He also said he thought the bear would wear the tiger down. Maybe he is right, but Krechmar said there's nothing to choose between both in a fysical fight. Bears just out of hibernation might be willing to take more risks, whereas a tiger can hunt again. That's, however, different from saying bears dominate tigers.
Large bears would get it their way more often than not, but animals of, say, 700 pounds are quite rare. Tigers are not that heavy. The heaviest male Amur tiger actually weighed in the last three decades was 212 kg. (468 pounds), but Krechmar said he's sure there are large tigers in Russia. Also remember the 212 kg. male was a young adult and not the longest measured. Not in a long way, in fact. But if there are large tigers, why were they not captured? Well, one thing is Primorye is a vast place. Two is large tigers could be able to destroy foot snares. At least one did and the result was one researcher was attacked and hospitalized.
THE LARGEST AMUR TIGERS AND USSURI BROWN BEARS
Tigers, like bears, often show a lot of individual variation. The only subspecies lacking in this respect is the Amur tiger. Males range between 170-212 kg. and they average about 190 kg. Is the lack of variation a result of a genetic problem or a result of the means used to trap tigers? My guess is the foot snare used could play a part in that it doesn't seem strong enough to hold a large tiger.
The heaviest accepted male Amur tiger was shot by Baikov close to the Korean border about a century ago. This tiger was 560 pounds. The photograph shows a long tiger, but I didn't see a massive animal. There are quite many records of Amur tigers well exceeding that weight, but all were dismissed by Slaught et al (2005) and they did so for good reasons. That, however, doesn't mean they were not there. I've seen large captive males and my guess is some wild tigers would come close.
AVERAGE MALES
Male Ussuri brown bears, according to Kucerenko, average 582 pounds, but three males recently captured (see the tiger extinction thread), all adults, ranged between 365-525 pounds (average 426).
The question is what average is true? As I don't know, I propose to take the average of both (10 x 582 and 3 x 426 divided by 13). That would come down to 546 if we use the actual number of males involved (10 and 3) and 504 if both averages have the same relative weight. If we can't decide, we use the average of 504 and 546. The result is 525 pounds for an average male. In autumn. If we add he loses 20-30% during hibernation, we get to 367-420 pounds in spring, say 395 pounds or thereabout. An average male, therefore, ranges between 395-525 pounds through the year. If we take the average to get to a year-round average, we get to 460 pounds. This, of course, is apart from individual variation and very large individuals.
The average for male Amur tigers about a decade and a half ago (389 pounds), on the other hand, was affected by a number of adolescents and young adults. Others were obviously malnourished. Furthermore, one or two large males were able to escape the snare. If we add those weighed in the decade, the average rises to about 420 pounds.
The difference now is about 40 pounds. Many would no doubt object, but it is a fact the lack of difference would explain the lack of interaction between adult males of both species. It's too close to call and my guess is wild bears and tigers also got to that conclusion. I of course know there are no average animals in real life, but my take is the differences are way more limited than many think.
STRENGTH
As strength is a concept difficult to assess, chances are rumours often enter descriptions. I've seen both in captivity. Adult males are strong. So strong, they feel like iron when you touch them. I did, when I moved and measured them.
Tigers are athletes, but one often forgets you need a lot of power to wrestle an animal down and keep it there. The canines are used to finish the job, but it can only be done when the power to overcome resistance is there. This ability not only is a result of sheer strength. I also saw something close to aggression, but different. Something difficult to describe. I once saw a demonstration of a male Amur tiger who had been sedated and moved. Although unable to move, he wasn't really out. After I had measured him, he was wide awake. And angry. I will not forget what I heard and saw in the hours that followed. Many of the visitors were so scared, they left. I was the only one left in the audience. More than once, I thought he would destroy the cage.
Brown bears ooze power. Males in particular were not made to join the Olympics, but to extort and destroy. The facility that had the Amur tiger mentioned above also had a large male brown bear. In spite of his size, he was very wary of the Amur tigers who had just arrived. On the day the Amurs were treated, the bear also was to be treated for a growth. They said they needed about 15 minutes to sedate him. When I entered the room to measure him, I was overrun by those leaving in a hurry. They said he wasn't cooperating. I heard a tornado in the room and saw him fighting the ropes. I decided it would be best to leave him to it.
That bear was twice the size of the largest male Amur. I do not doubt he would have been victorious in a one-on-one battle on account of his great size, but I also do not doubt any of the males would have attacked him given half a chance. Amur tigers just don't like bears. And bears don't like tigers. Animosity.
FIGHTS
Based on what I read and saw myself, I got to a number of ideas regarding an encounter between two males of similar size (tiger longer and bear 50-100 pounds heavier).
1 - Bears often are provoking big cats in captivity. Same in wild animals. My guess is the bear will open the negociations more often than not. Initiative bear.
2 - After the first exchanges, the bear will notice the tiger is about equal in strength, but faster. He will also notice he can't leave, whereas a tiger can. Now the initiative is with the tiger. He won't go for the throat, but the neck. In order to get there, speed is used. I've seen adult male tigers jump over an adult human without any effort. In this part of the encounter, it is about trying to get a good position (tiger) and a good defence (bear). Initiative tiger.
3 - Once the fight is on, the bear needs to prevent the tiger from getting a hold, as this would result in chopped vertebrae. In order to achieve that goal, he needs to move well. A bear is able to do that, because he is more agile than many think. When the tiger is wasting his energy, chances are he will call it a day. A tiger can, but a bear can't. Still psychological advantage tiger.
4 - In some cases, the fight goes all the way. Which animal would be prepared to take on a dangerous opponent? Tigers would. And brown bears. Although uncommon, deadly fights are not as rare as many think. Many Russian biologists reported on true incidents. When I saw the numbers, I realized it wasn't about isolated incidents. Between 1943-1996, I counted well over a 100, of which 60 went the distance (predatory attacks not included). The real number probably is much higher, as most fights are not witnessed. Based on what I read, I think there are about 1-10 serious fights each year. This means about 5 animals perish in deadly encounters every year. Serious fights, therefore, are uncommon, but not very rare.
5 - Biologists agree tigers do not hunt male brown bears. The main reason is there is no peer-reviewed document with an impeccable decription of both contenders. Those who reported on fights between tigers and bears often were unable to deliver details, let alone undeniable evidence of adult males involved in an all-out. But it is a fact they did find many dead tigers and bears.
Although I agree the evidence they found points towards youngsters, it is a fact there were dead adult tigers and I don't mean a few here and there. Most were strangled. As this takes both skill and strength, chances are adult bears were involved. Same for the dead bears. I do not doubt adults were involved, but I'm only sure about 2 adult male tigers and two adolescents or young adult males. I also found evidence for 3 adult male bears killed in fights. What I read wasn't clean evidence, but it was more than circumstantial evidence. Same for adult female bears and tigresses. There are at least 3 confirmed recent reports of female brown of 150-200 kg. killed by male tigers. My guess is there are much more victims.
6 - What about those who perished in fights? In nearly all incidents, they were killed by animals who had an advantage. Of the 3 male brown bears, 2 were 'Schatuns' killed in winter by large male tigers. My guess is they were desperate and emaciated. The bear killed in July 1943 was killed by the largest male Amur tiger I know of. Same for the 2 immature or young adult male tiger in that their opponents were described as 'large' or 'very large'. I assume there's no need to discuss the adult females killed by adult males (both species)?
7 - In the end, authorities should have the last word. In the sixties of the last century, there was a discussion on bears and tigers in Russia. The conclusion was brown bears won on points. The last part ('on points') suggests it is a close call. All agreed a real large male bear would go unchallenged. Of course he would, as size counts in a fight. But in bears, size is a relative concept. What would happen when a big male of 750 pounds in autums who lost a third of his weight during hibernation encountered a male tiger of exceptional size? Both well over 500 pounds in summer. It really happened in July 1943. Maybe the tiger had an advantage. Maybe the bear was old.
One more remark on that incident. Mazak's info on the tiger was first dismissed, but now seems to have been accepted to an extent. The information on his size, I mean. But the info on the bear he killed wasn't. This most probably will take another three decades.
Another one to finish with. The Tatibe River bear killed in early May 1951 by a tigress. He or she was about 170 kg. in early May. A fat youngster, some thought. A female perhaps, others said. Or an immature male. But Mazak wrote it was an adult male. At 170 kg. or thereabout in May, the bear would have been 20-30% heavier in late autumn. Let's see. I get to 204-221 kg. It could have been a large youngster, a young male or an adult female. But we now know that 3 adult males weighed last autumn were 165, 180 and 235 kg. So it could have been a male as well. Why is it biologists often seem reluctant to publish details?
