Amur Tigers

[Apex Titan]

@GreenGrolar 

One thing I'll say, your a reasonable bear poster. You don't ignore evidence, you acknowledge the tigers impressive bear killing abilities/prowess and you also acknowledge the fact that tigers prey on large bears their own size and weight. This is good, so we can have a fruitful discussion on this topic.

Unlike some other bear fanboyz, especially the administrator of the bear forum who repeatedly (and deliberately) ignores the evidence and continues to spout lies, personal opinions and pure guesswork.

Quote:I guess this is the source you are referring too right? I believe it is talking about brown bears in general and the potential weight they can achieve. Tigers killing bears their own weight is impressive as pointed out. However, most brown bear subspecies seem to have a certain weight advantage over a Siberian tiger.

Larger males brown bears seem to be able to offer a decent resistance and it said the tiger is far from winning such fights very often yet it has more chance against a tigress and small tiger. Most wild animals prefer to hunt the weaker of their kind even if they have more than a 5/10 chance of killing the stronger one. 

Anyway the tiger is rank as dominant because it is an apex predator and will always have more kills even though it hunts mainly adult females. Although tigers do win at parity, most male brown bears subspecies seem to outweigh a tiger at average weights. I wish these accounts of tigers killing large bears will specify the gender.

A full-grown adult male Ussuri brown bear can weigh just 180 kg. As you know, in bear species, weight variation is very pronounced, more so than any big cat species. Seryodkin captured and weighed 3 adult male brown bears in the Sikhote-Alin Reserve, and one adult male brown bear (in autumn when bears are at their heaviest) weighed just 180 kg, the other two male bears weighed 235 kg and 165 kg. On average yes, male Ussuri brown bears are heavier than male tigers, but some individuals are significantly lighter and smaller than some male tigers.

Dunishenko stated that in fights between a tiger and very large brown bear weighing 400-600 kg, the tiger is far from winning such fights very often. Well, of course, in a fight between a tiger and huge brown bear twice his own weight or more, anything can happen. The tiger won't win such a fight "very often", but still, more often than not, the male tiger will win such a fight. This is what Dunishenko is saying. Notice, he also says tigers do not grow as big, but they compensate for the weight difference with more developed hunting skills. i.e. superior killing abilities and skill.

Hence why Dunishenko (and Aramilev) stated that a very large brown bear has more chances against a tigress or young (small) tiger, but in a fight against an adult male tiger, the bear already has less chances.

In a recent video, Aramilev stated: "An adult male tiger will always kill any bear, but a tigress or young tiger can lose to a large male brown bear."

Not only do Dunishenko and Aramilev favour the tiger in a fight against a huge male brown bear, the Russian zoologist Timofei Bazhenov also stated: "As a rule, the tiger wins."

*This image is copyright of its original author

I agree, I also wish the gender of large brown bears killed by tigers was specified. Here's an example:

Biologist Matyushkin found the remains of an adult brown bear killed by a tiger, but he never specified the gender of the killed bear, or maybe he couldn't because of the remains left. Who know's, but for all we know, this could have been an adult male brown bear killed and eaten by a tiger, its very possible. But all we can do is speculate.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Translation:

"It is noteworthy, for example, that in such a site in the middle reaches of the Beloborodovsky key, where the valley is compressed by rocky slopes, and its flat bottom is cut through by narrow hollows, along with the animals that died from tigers, the remains of red deer have been found, and the remains of an adult brown bear were also found, most likely also killed by a tiger."

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/%...frontcover

Also reported by the Moscow society of Naturalists:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/B...frontcover

Quote:Would the the bespectacled tiger killing a male brown bear be an exceptional case as a sloth bear killing a 12 year old Bengal tiger or equally unconfirmed?

I doubt any sloth bear can kill a tiger in a serious fight to death by the way although they have won some skirmishes.

The case of the huge sloth bear that allegedly "killed" that 12 year old tiger, was nothing but pure speculation by the forest officials. The report states injuries from a "large carnivore", which could easily (and way more likely) be another tiger. The officials are uncertain as to what happened to that tiger, the report is pure guesswork. They found no signs at all, of a fight between the old tiger and sloth bear. That says it all.

Unlike Batalov, who is 100% certain, and has no doubts, that the tiger 'Ochkarik' killed the huge male brown bear 'Chlamid'. So these two cases don't compare.

Yes, no sloth bear stands a chance of killing a tiger in a fight, period. Its a complete mismatch.

Quote:I believe you posted this account on Carnivora which confirms what some of the biologists say. When it says a bear with every advantage probably refers to weight advantage, strength advantage, stronger jaws (if they outweigh a tiger by a decent size and weight advantage) etc (probably refers to larger male brown bears and polar bears at least). At equal weights most Ussuri brown bears are female.

*This image is copyright of its original author

It says the bear with "every advantage", which also means with a sneak attack advantage, as mentioned also. 

Quote:Tigers do have amazing five fold armaments (agility, better killing bite, stronger jaws pound to pound, sharper claws, explosive) and are way better hunters than even the larger and stronger polar bear which can kill belugas five times its weight (making them the best hunters out of all bears). Larger male polar bears also have stronger jaws overall than tigers and lions (although the tiger and lion has stronger jaws pound to pound) and can bite through beluga hide are quicker killers than brown bears though big cats are quicker killers. There are accounts which says a bear has stronger bones and being a plantigrade can hit harder and will have more strength in pushing and pulling even at equal weights but this might not be the thread to post these accounts. However, the tiger has greater agility, a better killing bite, and a way better hunter, and quicker killer probably balances this out. I acknowledge the tiger has strong bones of its own too. I will post more on morphology at the proper thread. 

Also I agree with you that where there are an equal number of tigers and brown bears, the largest cat will have more wild boar kills on its list. No brown bear can match a tiger when it comes to hunting skills. It is much easier to find tiger on wild boar prey than it is to find a brown bear on one.

Also, remember, the tiger is more powerful than a bear. The brown bear is more stronger (referring to brute strength), but the tiger is more physically powerful/explosive. Power is different from strength. The tiger can generate its strength in a much quicker fashion with greater velocity and energy output. Which makes the tiger more powerful.

There's also the tigers huge canines, which are the largest of all the worlds terrestrial carnivores. Even a young tiger or tigress has canines that dwarf even the biggest male brown bears canines, which are generally small. So overall, the tiger has deadlier weaponry than any bear, being a natural born killer and pure predator.

No comparison here; Just look at the huge size difference in canines: The big grizzly is badly outclassed....

*This image is copyright of its original author

There doesn't have to be an equal amount of tigers and brown bears in the same area, for tigers to have more wild boar kills. There just has to be at least a decent amount of tigers in the area. Bears (brown & Himalayan bears) have always outnumbered tigers in the Russian Far East. Omnivores (bears) and ungulates always outnumber hyper-carnivorous apex predators, naturally.

In the study you posted from 1960's (or 1970's) in the Amur territory, there were barely any tigers left. They were at the brink of extinction, I think less than 50 individuals left in the entire Russian Far East. Whereas bears have always been abundant. Thats why the results were heavily biased towards brown bears having more adult wild boar kills.

But as tiger numbers increased over time, much more recent studies showed that tigers frequently hunt and kill adult male wild boar, and kill adult male wild boar at a greater frequency than brown bears, with tigers successfully hunting, fighting and killing even huge male wild boars.

Plenty of evidence and recent accounts confirms, that tigers (even juveniles, tigresses & adolescents) readily attack and kill large mature male wild boars, whereas brown bears clearly seem to avoid the big male boars.

I don't think there's any modern studies that show that brown bears frequently hunt adult male wild boars, when they hunt boars. Know of any?

Quote:I know it does not stop tigers from preying on adult bears and ungulates but brown bears do seem to have stronger bones (not saying tigers are weak as they are very powerful). The amur tiger seems to be the least lacking among pantherines might make it the strongest extant cat.

I agree with Miquelle's statement. Brown bears are built more robust than tigers, whereas tigers are built more for athleticism, speed, agility and greater power.

Although the brute strength of a tiger is legendary; Here's a tiger flipping over the carcass of a large bull gaur it had killed:

Quote:Because of the tiger's weaponary and killer instinct. Some biologist also favour leopards against gorilla. Yet there are accounts which say that the Siberian tiger will usually avoid a male Ussuri brown bear. From example, Alexander Batalov who said the bespectecled tiger killed Chamlid also said that tigers prefer to avoid male brown bears during mating season:

This is similar to the account above which says the tiger is far from winning fights very often against a large brown bear which can weigh 400, 500, and 600 kg yet it also says the same large brown bear has a better chance against a tigress and small tiger.

Yes, but remember, the mating season is different from in general (All seasons).

Batalov also reported that when tigers hunt bears (in summer) some male tigers can attack almost any bear. Which clearly implies that adult male brown bears can be preyed on by some male tigers:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Also, in the Durminsky reserve where Batalov works in, brown bears are rare because they avoid areas inhabited by tigers:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.hab.kp.ru/daily/27360.5/4541287/


We have reliable information and recent reports (2018-2022) which proves that tigers dominate and depress brown bear populations in Primorye, Khabarovsk and Northeast China. This is clear dominance from the tiger over the brown bear.

Also here's an important thing to note, not a single report or expert has said that only "female brown bears" and "young brown bears" are avoiding tigers. Reports clearly state: "brown bears" in general, which strongly indicates that brown bears of all genders and ages generally avoid areas inhabited by tigers.

The administrator of the bear forum, like always, is merely speculating based off zero evidence, that only adult female brown bears are vacating areas heavily populated by tigers. There's no shred of evidence to support his empty claims. Reports suggest that brown bears in GENERAL, (including adult male bears) avoid areas with tigers. And this point is very valid, because there are several cases observed and reported by biologists of male brown bears showing fear of tigers and avoiding them.

Even Vaillant, who talked to numerous experts and authorities, stated that although Ussuri brown bears can reach 1000 lb in weight, they have been known to flee at the sight of a tiger. So some, not all, but some full-grown adult male brown bears, even large male bears do fear tigers.

Hunter J Alain Smith travels to the Russian Far East to hunt some bears, and after a tiger sighting in the area, the next day he is told by the Russian forest rangers and guides, that they have to leave the area, because with a tiger lurking in the vicinity, the bears won't come out because "all of these bears are afraid of the tigers."

Go to the 13:18 mark:

There's just too much recent (and consistent) evidence now, that clearly proves that bears in general fear tigers and avoid them and areas inhabited by tigers. This is one of the reasons why Amur tigers are widely regarded as the owners and lord of the Amur-Ussuri forests. Reply