Felids Interactions - Interspecific Conflicts

[Luipaard]

(02-22-2023, 11:58 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(02-22-2023, 03:49 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(02-21-2023, 10:53 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(02-21-2023, 10:26 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(02-21-2023, 08:18 PM)Pckts Wrote: It’s always funny to hear people claim Leopards to be Tigress sized. Here’s a perfect example of the differences between a tigress and male leopard. With regards to the encounter, the leopard is strictly defensive and nothing more.

Just because extremely large male leopards can be tigress/lioness-sized doesn't mean every male leopard is. I don't know why you're basing this off a random interaction in Panna National Park. I doubt that an Indian leopard would grow to such an extent when data shows they struggle hard to reach 80kg plus there's no reason to approach such sizes when competing with larger predators. I shouldn't tell you this because you know this very well.

Dr. Mohammad Farhadinia was one of the authors of a newsletter where measurements were given of one of the largest Persian leopard skulls. They concluded the individual was as large as an adult female tiger that once roamed in Golestan National Park which means they were talking about a Caspian tigress (weight range 85-135kg). Now I know your logic by now, you'll assume they were saying the leopard basically weighed 85kg so it was as big as a small Caspian tiger but I doubt that since Caspian tigresses' minimum skull length was 268 mm compared to the 281 mm long Persian leopard skull in this case. 

Measurements of 16 Bengal tiger skulls:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Minimum skull length: 280 mm
Minimum skull width: 177 mm

For leopards (overall):
Maximum skull length: 282 mm
Maximum skull width: 191 mm

This is excluding the biggest leopard skull ever with a condylobasal length of 264 mm (compared to the minimum condylobasal length of 255 mm in this tiger sample). I'm not into tiger skull data so it's possible there are even smaller Bengal tiger skulls.

By the way, nobody here said anything about 'tigress-sized' leopards except for you. Pantherine AKA Balam too was recently spreading nonsense of people saying leopards (as in general) are tigress-sized when in reality it's about the biggest male leopards out there. What a coincidence right?

But yes there are male leopards who have the right to be called tigress/lioness-sized and data supports this. Perhaps you should tell Dr. Mohammad Farhadinia how funny it is what he said about that large Persian leopard skull?

When did skulls determine the size of the cat?
The largest skulls measured don't correlate to the largest cat measured and regardless  an "extremely large leopard" is 90kg, that would be an extremely small Tigress/Lioness. And still that Tigress/Lioness would be much larger in frame just very skinny in mass. 
Make it simple, show me a single Leopards body dimensions that compare to an average Lioness/Tigress. 
Lets see the "Data support this."

Quote:When did skulls determine the size of the cat?
The largest skulls measured don't correlate to the largest cat measured

The bigger the skull the larger the cat. Sure one individual can have a bigger skull than another one while weighing less but in this case we're dealing with male leopards walking around with tigress/lioness-size skulls. Leopards do not have proportionally larger skulls than tigers so there's no way those male leopards are of average size.

Quote:and regardless  an "extremely large leopard" is 90kg, that would be an extremely small Tigress/Lioness.

An extremely large male leopard can weigh more than 90kg since that isn't even the maximum recorded weight. You may agree or disagree, but the largest male leopards can reach or surpass 100kg.

Quote:And still that Tigress/Lioness would be much larger in frame just very skinny in mass.

There are lionesses in Central and West Africa who are adult and thus not 'extremely small':

*This image is copyright of its original author

A mother lioness weighing 90kg is definitely within range of the bigger male leopards. I'm not counting in the 80kg one since she was recovering but likely weighed around 90-100kg. Also that recovering lioness is as tall as the largest male leopards, being around 80cm tall. So I doubt these lionesses would be "much larger in frame". And don't forget we're talking about the largest male leopards, before you go think male leopards are lioness-sized in general...

Also you say some jaguars are "legitimately Lioness/Tigress sized.", but in terms of shoulder height those jaguars are basically leopard-sized, thus tigresses/lionesses will appear bigger but skinnier in mass. Literally the same excuse you use in the leopard case.
You may want to take another look at the abdominal girth of Shaka and Joker by the way. It's not normal to have a greater abdominal girth than the chest girth. This implies the animal isn't empty at all. 

Quote:Make it simple, show me a single Leopards body dimensions that compare to an average Lioness/Tigress.
Lets see the "Data support this."

You know very well there are leopards out there with similar body measurements of lionesses/tigresses, but their body measurements are unknown. The biggest male leopard with known body measurements is a mature male weighing between 69-75kg and had a chest girth of 94 cm.
Here are body measurements of an adolescent tigress weighing circa 100kg:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://wildtigerhealthcentre.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Report_on_Philibhit_tigress_rescue_09Jun20_edited.pdf

Now scale that male leopard to 100kg. You do the math, or ask your buddy Pantherine/Balam.

I forgot to ask you this but since you find it funny when people call leopards tigress-sized, what do you actually think of people calling certain male jaguars "pleistocene-sized" and "weighing around 170kg"? Is that funny too?

Quote:The bigger the skull the larger the cat. Sure one individual can have a bigger skull than another one while weighing less but in this case we're dealing with male leopards walking around with tigress/lioness-size skulls. Leopards do not have proportionally larger skulls than tigers so there's no way those male leopards are of average size.

No, you're dealing with Leopards walking around with small Tigress/Lioness Skulls and once again they don't correlate to the largest weights or dimensions. 
And Leopards don't have proportionally larger skulls, hence a Sumatran Tiger being Jaguar sized but having even larger skulls than them. 

Quote:An extremely large male leopard can weigh more than 90kg since that isn't even the maximum recorded weight. You may agree or disagree, but the largest male leopards can reach or surpass 100kg.

100s of Leopards weighed, less than a handful that have reached 90kg. So once again, that's an extremely large Leopard and that would be considered an extremely small Tigress/Lioness.

Quote:There are lionesses in Central and West Africa who are adult and thus not 'extremely small':

So we should now use the smallest population of Lions to compare?
How about using any real population of Lions that haven't been decimated by poaching and is down to 20 adults or so. Once again trying to twist the facts.

Quote:Also you say some jaguars are "legitimately Lioness/Tigress sized.", but in terms of shoulder height those jaguars are basically leopard-sized, thus tigresses/lionesses will appear bigger but skinnier in mass. Literally the same excuse you use in the leopard case.

You may want to take another look at the abdominal girth of Shaka and Joker by the way. It's not normal to have a greater abdominal girth than the chest girth. This implies the animal isn't empty at all. 

Jokers shoulder height-80cm
Of the 5 Tigress in Cooch Behars with shoulder heights, 4 are sub 900mm and the average difference is 3'' 
Jokers Body length is longer than 10/17 and longer than their average overall
His chest girth is larger than all of them
His weight is more than most 

Hence him being legitimately Lioness/Tigress sized. 

And what are you talking about, it's absolutely normal to have greater abdominal than chest girth, especially if their is food content. Not to mention, Jokers abdominal girth is less than his chest girth. 

Quote:You know very well there are leopards out there with similar body measurements of lionesses/tigresses, but their body measurements are unknown. The biggest male leopard with known body measurements is a mature male weighing between 69-75kg and had a chest girth of 94 cm.

Here are body measurements of an adolescent tigress weighing circa 100kg:

I know very well there absolutely isn't a Leopard that has "similar body dimensions" to a Lioness/Tigress. 
And we have a persian leopard that is most likely either the 86 or 88kg one mentioned that not only is based off a taxidermied individual but still cant even outsize a female Pantanal Jaguar yet somehow you want to try and compare it a Lioness/Tigress.

And I'm confused, how does comparing any Leopard to an adolescent Tigress that outweighs any of them, has a larger chest girth than any of them and is much taller than any of them backs your claim?

Quote:I forgot to ask you this but since you find it funny when people call leopards tigress-sized, what do you actually think of people calling certain male jaguars "pleistocene-sized" and "weighing around 170kg"? Is that funny too?

Well considering there almost 0 verifiable information on "pleistocene-sized" Jaguars, yes I think it's incorrect. Also any claim of them being 170kg isn't based off of fact.

Quote:No, you're dealing with Leopards walking around with small Tigress/Lioness Skulls and once again they don't correlate to the largest weights or dimensions.
And Leopards don't have proportionally larger skulls, hence a Sumatran Tiger being Jaguar sized but having even larger skulls than them.

I know leopards do not have proportionally larger skulls than tigers, that's literally what I said:

Quote:Leopards do not have proportionally larger skulls than tigers so there's no way those male leopards are of average size.

Again, these leopards are so huge there's no chance they're average-sized while walking with tigress/lioness-sized skulls.

Quote:100s of Leopards weighed, less than a handful that have reached 90kg. So once again, that's an extremely large Leopard and that would be considered an extremely small Tigress/Lioness.

Nobody is saying a 90kg male leopard isn't extremely large. However, you said an extremely large male leopard is 90kg when in reality they can weigh more than 90kg. Some believe they can't surpass 100kg while others believe they can.

Quote:and that would be considered an extremely small Tigress/Lioness.
So we should now use the smallest population of Lions to compare? How about using any real population of Lions that haven't been decimated by poaching and is down to 20 adults or so. Once again trying to twist the facts.

You said a 90kg lioness is extremely small, I provided data that shows that adult lionesses can weigh that much while being healthy. Why would you call those populations not real? You like to bring up those snared leopards when talking about Central Africa leopards who face poachers or bushmeat hunters as well? I never heard you complain about them not being a 'real population'? You used those weights to try and decrease those leopards' size actually. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Quote:Jokers shoulder height-80cm
Of the 5 Tigress in Cooch Behars with shoulder heights, 4 are sub 900mm and the average difference is 3''
Jokers Body length is longer than 10/17 and longer than their average overall
His chest girth is larger than all of them
His weight is more than most

Nothing of that information will disprove the fact that lionesses/tigresses will be "much larger in frame just very skinny in mass." compared to said jaguars due to shoulder height. Same thing large male leopards will look smaller when the size difference is actually small.

A big male leopard and a lion at the same location in Central African Republic:

*This image is copyright of its original author

The difference in size isn't huge especially considering the lion is closer to the camera.

Quote:And what are you talking about, it's absolutely normal to have greater abdominal than chest girth, especially if their is food content. Not to mention, Jokers abdominal girth is less than his chest girth.

I said it's not normal unless there's food content hence why I said the animals weren't empty. Even Joker's abdominal girth is slightly less than his chest girth meaning he weighs less than in reality. Both cats clearly were well fed as all Pantanal jaguars are.

Quote:I know very well there absolutely isn't a Leopard that has "similar body dimensions" to a Lioness/Tigress.m:

You know very well the largest male leopards have similar body dimensions, especially in neck and chest girth. In shoulder height I agree they don't but so do jaguars.

Quote:And we have a persian leopard that is most likely either the 86 or 88kg one mentioned that not only is based off a taxidermied individual but still cant even outsize a female Pantanal Jaguar yet somehow you want to try and compare it a Lioness/Tigress

So first you and Pantherine/Balam refused to use the taxidermy leopard's body measurements and now all of a sudden you assume it's either a 86kg male from a study or a 88kg male that got sent to you? Again, hypocrisy at its finest. Otherwise, prove one of those males are the taxidermy specimen we're talking about.

Quote:And I'm confused, how does comparing any Leopard to an adolescent Tigress that outweighs any of them, has a larger chest girth than any of them and is much taller than any of them backs your claim?

There are no body measurements of a bigger leopard other than a 69-75kg one. I told you to scale him with his 94cm chest girth, of course the tigress will be taller as male leopards only approach 80cm in height, like jaguars.

Quote:Well considering there almost 0 verifiable information on "pleistocene-sized" Jaguars, yes I think it's incorrect. Also any claim of them being 170kg isn't based off of fact.

Well Pantherine/Balam thinks male jaguar Edno weighed around 170kg. What's your estimated weight? Reply