ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[peter]

A - URSUS ARCTOS MIDDENDORFFI

I discussed with Ursus arctos middendorffi about tigers and bears in different threads in AVA. A few years ago, he visited Amsterdam. He was my guest for some days and we again talked tigers and bears. Very interesting, it was. He now is a mod at the Carnivora forum and he's doing a great job.

There's no question the points he made (referring to the quotes you posted) are sound. There also is no question bears top big cats in the heavyweight division, for the simple reason not one of the big cats operates in that division. The issues we discussed was interactions in the intermediate division and, in particular, hypothetical advantages and disadvantages. We did the hypotheticals more often, because Russian authorities already discussed the classified results in the intermediate divisions. I posted the outcome of their debate in this thread. I also posted about Krechmar.

B - FORUMS, DEBATES AND HYPOTHETICALS

When tigers and bears are debated in a forum, most scenarios relate to males operating in the intermediate division (400-500 pounds). The outcome of most debates was more or less underlined by reality. For example. It is known that there is not that much information on male Amur tigers and male Ussuri bears in Wild Russia. They don't avoid each other, but it's more than likely they avoid an all-out. The reason is they, most probably, are as unsure as we are.

The point many agreed on was bears probably have an advantage with increasing weight, even at weight parity. The reason is prime males are different animals from younger males. They often have more muscle mass in area targeted by a tiger (rump and neck) and also have a slightly longer and, especially, wider and more massive skull.

Bears live longer than tigers. Males are able to reproduce at 4-5 years of age, but most authorities consider them adult when they reach 8-9. Those between 10-20 are considered prime animals. When they reach 8 or so, most males of 200 kg. and over wouldn't be bothered by tigers, I think. That doesn't mean they would confront a healthy male Amur tiger at every opportunity. My guess is both probably try to avoid conflict.

So far so good. The problem is nature is unpredictable. A male bear could lose weight as a result of a crop failure, he could lose fitness as a result of a disease and he could have had a bad winter. Maybe he was injured in a fight with another male bear. Let's suppose it's the other way round for a male tiger at the time they meet. Also suppose the male bear is desperate. In that scenario, chances are the bear would contest a kill the male tiger made. What happens next is anybody's guess. Authorities agree that most males killed in a fight (both species) are the unhealthy, the desperate, the young or the old. Males, to be sure, seldom perish in fights. Most animals killed are young or desperate in those cases I know, the winner usually had a significant advantage.

The remarks on bears suffering from a crop failure, to be sure, do not belong in hypotheticals. In some Russian regions, hundreds of bears perished as a result of a crop failure. Many of those unable to hibernate attacked, killed and ate other bears. When they were finished, they turned to cattle and man. Many had to be shot because they had become too dangerous. It was a disaster.    

C - THERE'S BEARS AND BEARS

When bears and tigers are discussed in a forum, those participating refer to hypothetical scenarios between animals of near-similar size and weight (males ranging between 400-500 pounds and those closer to 450 pounds in particular). Big cats don't come much larger than Amur tigers, but there are brown bear subspecies that outclass Ursus arctos lasiotus, not a small animal by any standard, by quite a margin. Furthermore, bears often show a considerable amount of individual variation. Some males easily reach 450 pounds in regions known for small bears and in regions known for large animals males of 800 pounds and well over are frequently seen. 

There's big and bigger. In some coastal subspecies, males average 700 pounds and over. Bears of that size are very different animals than those seen in eastern Russia. I would even say they almost are a different species. The photographs below are from AVA and the Shaggy God Forum. Most of those from the Shaggy God forum were posted by Warsaw, Grahh and Sarus.

1 - North-America (Alaska):

*This image is copyright of its original author

2 - North-America (Alaska):

*This image is copyright of its original author

3 - North-America (same region):

*This image is copyright of its original author

4 - North-America (captive brown bear):

*This image is copyright of its original author

   

My favorites are polar bears, because they, like big cats, are true carnivores. In spite of the difficulties they face, some males easily exceed 1000 pounds. Below, to finish the post, a few pictures (also from the Shaggy God forum):

5 - This male was 933 pounds (423,20 kg.). Large, but in some regions the average for adult males is over that weight:

*This image is copyright of its original author

6 - This male, shot near Kotzebue, probably was the largest killed. There are many rumours on his weight, but it seems unlikely he, as many claimed, was more than double the weight of the male shown in -5-:

*This image is copyright of its original author

7 - I've no clue as to the weight of this male, but large he is: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

D - PANTHERA TIGRIS ALTAICA AND URSUS ARCTOS LASIOTUS

The post is closed with a nice picture posted by poster Sarus in the Shaggy God forum:

8 - Big tiger, small bear:

*This image is copyright of its original author

9 - Small tigress, big brown bear, Himalayan black bear and wild boar:

*This image is copyright of its original author

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