ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

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peter

Co-owner of Wildfact

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Joined: Mar 2014

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#2,688

11-19-2023, 10:36 AM

ABOUT THE DISCUSSION BETWEEN OUR MEMBERS GUATE AND APEX

1 - Introduction

A few weeks ago, a discussion between our members 'GuateGorija' and 'Apex Titan' started in the thread 'Amur Tigers'. After it turned heated, I proposed to continue in this thread. The reason is this thread has more views, enabling those interested to take notice of the proceedings. Another reason is the character of this thread is more suited for discussions. The main aim of the threads about tiger subspecies is to collect good info.

Both Apex and Guate decided to ignore the proposal. The result was the Amur tiger thread was polluted. A few days ago I again proposed to continue the discussion in this thread. I hope the proposal will be accepted this time.

2 - Wildfact

Before turning to the discussion, it doesn't seem superfluous to underline Wildfact is a forum about those making their home in the natural world. We don't mind the occasional discussion, but our aim is to collect good information. In order to get there and to prevent problems, rules and mods were added. A brilliant new formula? Not really. It's an old recipe that was tested and tried. Well over 73 million views in a decade say our members and readers appreciate the way the forum is run.

3 - About the discussion

I followed the proceedings. What did I see? Although it may seem different, it isn't about the issues discussed. In between and behind the sentences, I sensed something of a very different nature. Meaning egos took over. When they do, the result will be problems.

4 - About success, pride and prejudice

I could start this paragraph with a nice overview of the merits of Guate and Apex, but I could also say both are very interested in wild tigers and invested a lot of time to develop in the department of knowledge. This is especially true for Guate, who's been here from the start. Apex started with a ban, but made a nice comeback and, as a result, was invited to post in the tiger exctinction thread about interactions between Amur tigers, Himalayan black and Ussuri brown bears. Guate's posts and tables often draw a crowd, but Apex isn't lacking in that department. Informationwise, both deliver.

Success often results in confidence. Overconfidence, however, can result in problems. More often than, it will have an effect on the way those affected interact. Did it affect Guate and Apex? To a degree, albeit it for different reasons. Guate is a confident poster with a reputation, whereas Apex learned to defend his posts and his position the hard way. Meaning their exchange resulted in what some would have perceived as a rumble in the jungle. When that happens, the most likely outcome is a lot of noise, plenty of bruises and, worst of all, broken pride.

What I'm saying is, Guate, it isn't about philosophy, but about action and reaction. When you decide for a frontal attack, your opponent isn't going to take it lying down. Not when he's made of the same wood. I know you're going to deny you delivered the first punch, but that's what happened and I wasn't the only one who noticed.

5 - About the effects of strong opinions

When you join a public forum to interact, knowledge and drive will be appreciated. The passion needed to get there, however, also can result in strong convictions. When they enter a discussion, anything is possible. In this particular case, I thought I saw sloppy reading and quick responses. The result was the discussion derailed. Example.

In my last post in the this thread, the heel width of some wild male Amur tigers in the Anyuisky National Park was discussed. The tiger known as 'The Beast' had a heel width of 13,5 cm and approached 3 meters in height standing on their his legs. I've no idea about the weight of the tiger, but it must have been an exceptional individual. Gotvansky added he saw prints with a heel width well exceeding 13,5 cm, meaning the tigers leaving these prints were even larger than 'The Beast'. I would like to know a bit more about them, but don't have the opportunity to talk to Gotvansky. As I'm in no postion to doubt the observation of a well-trained and experienced man, I've no option but to assume the esults of his measurements were accurate. Different from saying I'm sure.

Same for the information about the young adult male Amur tiger of the Köln Zoo discussed in 'Two fatal tiger attacks in zoos' (Tantius et al., 2016). Those present at the autopsy of the tiger were professionals, meaning it's likely they followed the protocol when the tiger was measured. In Germany (referring to a conversation with Dr. D. Mörike, the former conservator of the Staatliches Museum für Naturkunde Stuttgart), the protocol is to measure the length of a big cat in a straight line ('between pegs'). But " ... likely ... " is different from being sure.

And that's about all there is to say about the Köln Zoo tiger and the one who measured the prints of wild Amur tigers of the Anyuisky National Park. Meaning you obviously missed what seemed to be obvious: a bit of doubt. The result was a superflous post.

Apart from sloppy reading, there's assumptions, exceptions and double standards. Example.

Your posts, to keep it short, say you accept information collected by tiger biologists and reject information that wasn't. This, implicitly, means you doubt the intentions and ability of just about every hunter before tiger biologists made their appearance. With 'just about', I mean you're prepared to accept some records. With 'some', I'm referring to those hunting tigers in what used to be British India in particular. And not Russia. Except for Baikov. That is to say, his 560-pound male shot near the Korean border in 1911. Most records of other tigers he shot, however, were rejected by those who had a closer look at historical records. The reason is the information didn't meet the threshold. The threshold defined by today's biologists. But thresholds apparently vary in size. Let's take the tiger with a head and body length of 7.5 recently discussed. You seem to accept the record, but what about other records of large tigers measured in that way? There are many.

Anyhow. The decision to sideline information collected by hunters a century ago is debatable, if not questionable. In the seventies of the previous century, biologists entered the forest with scales that had a limited capacity. A result of circumstances or a result of doubts about reports from hunters about large tigers a century ago? I don't know, but I do know some biologists still have serious doubts about tigers exceeding 500 pounds, let alone 600. The doubt experessed by Kitchener and Yamaguchi ignited a discussion about the amount of food a wild tiger is able to consume. Today, the amount biologists agreed on is deducted when a wild tiger is captured. This means tiger biologists, apparently, assume any wild tiger they capture is loaded. Debatable, to put it mildly. And what about tigers unable to hunt because of an injury? They get 60 pounds extra?

The new culture biologists embraced is solidified in 'peer-reviewed' documents (articles reviewed by those with a similar set of assumptions as the authors). Information weighed in this way is accepted by all. Information that wasn't, isn't. Over time, processing information in this way will result in a reliable framework. The problem is there are thresholds and they seem to favour some observations over others. They can result in premature conclusions. Example.

When the Siberian Tiger Project started, it didn't take biologists long to conclude Amur tigers do not hunt bears. Too dangerous, they said. A decade later, however, they had to conclude tigers hunt bears more often than they assumed. Most bears hunted, on top of that, were larger than biologists assumed. Views were adjusted. They then said bears are mainly hunted by experienced old male tigers. Wrong again, they had to conclude some years further on. Tigresses also hunt bears. Same for young adults and immature tigers. When contacted by a poster a decade ago, Kerley said just about anything is possible when a tiger and a bear meet. Recent information, however, strongly suggest no tigers have been killed by bears in the period 1992-2023. There's, on the other hand, plenty of reliable information about bears killed by tigers. A few years ago, biologists concluded tigers hunt Himalayan black bears. Except for large males approaching or even exceeding 400 pounds. Not true, Kolchin said. Large males are also hunted. And brown bears? There are reliable reports about brown bears hunted by tigresses, but most brown bears seem to be hunted by experienced males. They, occasionally, hunt females up to about their own size, but adult male brown bears are avoided, biologists thought. I wrote 'thought', and not 'think', because they could have changed their mind after two incidents between male tigers and male brown bears made a few headlines. Meaning assumptions had an effect.

Another example. In a recent document about tiger skulls, it was concluded the exceptional sagittal crest of adult wild male Amur tigers is a result of eating frozen meat in the cold season. But skulls of captive adult male Amur tigers also often have a crest of remarkable size. And why is it adult wild Amur tigresses also eating frozen meat in the long Russian winter lack the exceptional crest seen in male skulls?

As to Apex. After reading peer-reviewed documents in which interactions between tigers and bears were discussed (referring to the period in which most biologists assumed tigers avoided bears), Apex decided for a different approach. Following his nose, he found reports of Ussuri brown bears killed by Amur tigers in Russian newspapers, magazins and (old) books. He also found a few interviews in which a well-known Russian biologist (A. Batalov) talked about a large male brown bear that followed an adult tigress with cubs for a prolonged period of time. The bear suddenly vanished. A few years later, Batalov said he was sure the big male was killed by tiger 'Ochkarik', the father of the cubs. Apex also found interviews with Russian tiger biologists saying male Amur tigers prevail in most interactions with even large bears. As their opinion isn't based on peer-reviewed documents, one has to assume it's based on observations of those they consider as reliable (hunters, rangers and peers). Peer-reviewed documents are extended and reliable, but that doesn't mean they cover all of it. Furthermore, not every biologist is active in the document department.

What I'm also saying is the quest of Apex produced something of interest. And you agreed.

The same nose telling Apex there could be more to tigers and bears than many assumed, told him information about the size of today's wild Amur tigers could be incomplete. He referred to (indirect information about the size of) tigers in northeastern China and the northern districts of the Khabarovsky Krai in particular. The information from northeastern China (referring to the video in which Limin featured), to a degree (as still unconfirmed), suggests he could have a point, but there's no information about tigers in the Khabarovski Krai at all. Nothing except the photograph of the tiger known as 'The Beast' and his neighbour (a large old male brown bear) hugging the same tree. While it's, as you said, true the suggestion of Apex isn't supported by reliable information, it's also true tigers in that part of the Russian Far East have never been captured.

This time, you went for Apex. The question is why. A result of what you perceived as an indirect 'attack' on today's biologists, or a result of something else? I remember a few posts about a man (with a degree) who had visited the Russian Far East. He said he saw a large tiger. You initially bought his story, but later contacted a researcher who told you the tiger was a male of average size. You didn't forget and decided to be more wary in the future. Years later, it resulted in a series of posts that quickly turned nasty when Apex started about the size of wild Amur tigers. He paid. Same for the one who, as you said, 'defended' him. Yes Guate, I did. And you now know why. One has to be careful with reports about large tigers, but that doesn't mean they're to be dismissed out of hand. You just never know in wild big cats.

6 - About peer-reviewed documents and alternative methods to get to good information

Over the years, many books in which wild Amur tigers feature have been published. Some were written by explorers and naturalists, others by hunters and, later, biologists. Apart from Mazak ('Der Tiger', 1983), you can find an overview in 'Mammals of the Sowjet-Union' (Band III, Raubtiere, Heptner and Sludskij, German translation, 1980). Reading them enabled me to learn a few things about the ecology of Amur tigers.

In 1992, the Siberian Tiger Project (STP) started. It resulted in a barrage of information. The great advantage of peer-reviewed documents is they're based on studies conducted over extended periods of time, enabling biologists to get to an extended framework of knowledge. Decisions based on this knowledge resulted in new reserves and national parks patrolled by well-trained rangers. The measures taken enabled ecossystems to recover to a degree. They also enabled wild animals, including apex predators, to survive in a human-dominated landscape. Today, there are about 650 wild Amur tigers in the Russian Far East and about 50 in northeastern China. Quite an achievement, considering the population bottleneck in the thirties of the previous century.

In many respects, peer-reviewed documents really are a great leap forward. Reading them compares to watching a series of great documentaries that took many years to complete. They take you into a largely unknown world and tell you which habitats tigers prefer, how much room they need, which animals they hunt, at what age they breed, at what age young tigers disperse and which dangers they face before they reach adulthood. In the last decade in particular, articles about the way Amur tigers, Himalayan black bears and Ussuri brown bears interact have been published. That's still apart from countless interesting articles in which conflicts between tigers and humans and causes of mortality are described. Diseases and parasites have been identified. The Siberian Tiger Project was, and still is, a very productive project. One of the best of it's kind as far as I can see. Same, although not (yet) to the same degree, for the (Russian) Amur Tiger programme.

As to the size of wild Amur tigers today. In the period 1992-2004, male tigers of 3 years and older captured in the Sichote-Alin Biosphere Reserve and its surroundings averaged 176,4 kg and 294 cm in total length measured 'over curves', whereas females averaged 117,9 kg and 275 cm in total length. I do not doubt the averages, but it is a fact most tigers have been captured in the Primorsky Krai, and in one district (a reserve) in particular. Apart from that, the table published in 2005 had a few young adult males. Important? I think so. The reason is there are significant differences between young adult and mature male tigers at the level of averages (referring to skull size, length and weight).

Peer-reviewed documents are as reliable as it gets. If conclusions are based on information collected in one specific region or district in one period of time, however, one has to be careful. The Russian Far East is a very large place and it's quite likely there are significant differences between subregions (referring to landscape, elevation, forest cover, human density, conditions, climate and prey animals) and even districts. It's also likely these will have an effect on the way tigers develop.

For (indirect) confirmation, we could move to India. In what used to be British India, local conditions seemed to have a pronounced effect on the average size of tigers. We know, because quite many hunters wrote books about their experiences. These books strongly suggest tigers shot just south of the Himalayas were larger than those shot in the Deccan and southeastern India. They also suggested hunting had an effect on the average size of tigers. I can hear you say there's a difference between experienced tiger hunters back then and today's poachers, but is there? Poachers are in it for the money and a large wild Amur tiger is a great trophy. Aramilev thinks 15-20 wild Amur tigers are poached every year, but a recent interview with someone qualified to get to an opinion suggests he could underestimate the number of tigers killed by poachers.

What I'm saying is there are different ways that lead to Rome. There are peer-reviewed documents, documentaries, newspaper articles, interviews and, last but not least, books published (well) before the STP started. I'm not saying they, informationwise, compare, but then, in the end, they, in a way, do. The only thing missing is the Udeges. They've been there for a long period of time and no doubt know a lot more than we do.

7 - To conclude

An issue can be discussed in two ways. The first, and most preferred, way is to present a view with flair and defend it at all costs. This method compares to a bout in the ring. You and your opponent get gloves and a furious crowd. Your opponent says there could be large tigers in remote regions in the Russian Far East (straight to the nose) and provides circumstantial evidence (left hook). You (liver) say most stories are a result of hearsay (end of round one). In round two, your opponent (body shot) goes straight for your weak spot (peer-reviewed documents), adds insult by quoting from 'The snare for tiger' (left hook) and finishes (stomach) with tigers leaving immense prints in a region never even visited by tiger biologists (below the belt). In round three, you question his mental ability (also below the belt), forcing the referee to intervene. He said you, and not someone else, decided for this method, and deducts a point for breaking a rule. He is then floored by a blow below the belt. Same for a ring-assistent, two members of the jury and the chairman of the International Boxing Federation. As a result of the animosity, the fight is cancelled. The question that started the bout, I mean discussion, wasn't answered. And all involved come up empty.

The second method, loathed by just about everyone these days, is to start a real discussion. No gloves. This method offers all involved the opportunity to discuss and weigh arguments considered as interesting. In the end, it will produce a decision based on sound reasoning. This method also offers all involved the opportunity to disagree in a respectful way. On top of that, this method offers those interested the opportunity to continue in the near future.

You opted for the first method, which resulted in animosity and a damaged nose. That's still apart from the one moderating the thread. He wants you to know it took him a lot of time to get to a conclusion. Time he wanted to invest in answering a question that started the discussion.

The decision I got to is you overreacted. The result was a problem. How solve? By accepting a mistake was made and by acting accordingly. It wouldn't result in a loss of face, but quite the opposite. The reason is people see problems all the time every day everywhere. They know how difficult it is to admit the ego is a tough opponent at the best of times. Someone prepared to face the consequences and solve the problem is noticed without a shadow of doubt. People like those able to overcome their own shadow. As it takes two to tango, it would be appreciated if Apex could contribute in this department as well.

8 - Edits

This post, as you might have noticed, was edited more than once. It no doubt resulted in confusion. My apologies. Although it may seem different, it took me quite a bit of time to read all posts. Same for getting to a conclusion. I wrote the post in one go and accepted it would take some time to get it right. I'm done now, meaning this was the last edit.

9 - The aim of this thread

In spite of the intention to turn the tide, we're still losing natural forests and countless species at an alarming rate. Every year, the conclusion is similar to the conclusion of the previous year. The future looks gloomy. Is there something we can do? I think so. This forum is an attempt to get members of the general public interested in the natural world. Judging from the number of views, it's appreciated. My proposal is to continue in this way.

Always remember this thread is about wild tigers, not us. In order to attract attention, we have to create something of interest. Not easy, but we don't need to perform miracles to get there. The reason is the natural world is quite something to behold. All we got to do is to show it.

This thread is based on good information. Information that will keep readers interested. They might make a difference in the end. In order to achieve our goal, members need to cooperate. You're a good poster, Guate. But so is Apex. How about a bit of cooperation?

To close the post, here's a few nice photographs. Watch the children in particular.

1 - Cover of Arseniev's great book: