ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[peter]

APEX

Interesting information once again! Appreciated. Same for the effort of 'Goodhope' ('Bruce'). Maybe he can ask Yuri Kya a bit more about the age and condition of the brown bear. Furthermore, one would like to know a bit more about the details. Did the bear follow the tiger or the tigress or was it the other way round? Was the bear ambushed, or did the tiger confront him? Anything known about the cause of death of the bear? Was his skull preserved?   

If Yuri Kya or one of his collegues is reading this: many thanks on behalf of all interested in tigers and bears! 

As to the table you posted. Although brown bears seem to be quite large in Bulgaria, European brown bears are smaller than their relatives in the Russian Far East. The (Russian) member who first posted about the incident in November 2022 added a table showing the correlation between the width of the palm and the weight of the bear leaving the print. The table is reliable. It says a male brown bear leaving a print with a palm width of 18 cm is adult. In the Russian Far East, an adult male brown bear in November is at least 250 kg. Those who know more say a large male brown bear can well exceed 500 kg just before hibernation.

The outcome of confrontations between adult tigers and bears

Although an average male brown bear is significantly heavier than an average male tiger (referring to reliable and recent tables posted in this thread), weight isn't (always) decisive in a fight between males of different species. Observations strongly suggest age, size and weight are decisive in a fight between two males of the same species. The two male brown bears killed in 2017 and 2022 were adult. At least one of them ('Chlamyda') was described as 'very large'. The male tigers involved were average-sized at best. Meaning the outcome of a fight between a male brown bear and a male tiger isn't a (direct) result of the size (weight) of both animals. Also meaning other factors seem to be decisive.
 
This (referring to the relation between weight and ability in a fight), to be sure, is not the conclusion of a poster driven by preference, but the conclusion of most of those who know a bit more about (the relations between) Amur tigers and (Himalayan black and Ussuri brown) bears in the Russian Far East. 

How to deal with information

There are different ways to confirm a hypothesis. One could, like Apex did, post reliable information directly confirming it, and one could do it in an indirect way.  

I found a video based on an interview with a very experienced hunter. He saw a very large male brown bear confiscate a wild boar killed by a (male?) tiger in a district close to the coast in November 1978. The bear continued robbing the tiger (it's quite likely the district had one tiger only) for a prolonged period of time. Happened just before, or during, the salmon run. Coastal brown bears can reach a weight of 600-700 kg just before hibernation. 

The move of the bear didn't surprise him. He was surprised about the way the tiger responded (...). This remark, in my opinion, is as telling as the conclusion of most of today's experts. It confirms a very large male brown bear can rob a tiger, but it also says it's quite the exception. 

I'll post the video in my next post. 

How to deal with insultive posts    

Yesterday, Sanjay got a PM. It was sent by a poster interested in bears and, apparently, sharks. The PM was insultive and our guess is it was sent by a member of 'Domain of the bears'. Not the first time and, most probably, not the last time. The reason is the administrator of that site is involved in severe misinformation, if not outright crap. It also is a fact some of his posts are insultive and abusive. It's, therefore, no wonder some of his members follow his example. Meaning we'll contact the organisation hosting their site. There's more than enough evidence for a serious complaint.  

Future

Our proposal, Apex, is to ignore the site mentioned from now on. Our advice is to inform us about insultive and/or abusive posts and PM's. 

We repeat the information you posted in this thread is much appreciated. It's recent, reliable, informative and interesting. This, we think, is the main reason it often draws a crowd. We want to emphasize we do not think the information you posted is a result of what some consider to be an 'agenda'. The information you post is confirmed by many experts working in the Russian Far East today, meaning it's reliable. It shows the relationship between Amur tigers and Ussuri brown bears is more complicated than many assumed. 

We hope you'll continue. In the end, our forum is about reliable information. Not something else.

To those interested in bears 

Our member 'Apex Titan' doesn't have an 'agenda'. Like many others, he's interested in interactions between wild Amur tigers, Himalayan black bears and Ussuri brown bears co-existing in the Russian Far East. The difference between 'Apex' and others is he's much more active. It is a fact he found a lot of recent information about the way tigers and bears interact in the Russian Far East. I could have used the information he posted, but decided to invite him to post in this thread. The reason is I want him to take the credit for his efforts.   

As far as I can see, he ('Apex') didn't 'discredit' bears. What he found, suggests life in the taiga is much more complicated than many of us assume.  

Amur tigers are professional hunters. Every study says professionals hunt what's available. In the Russian Far East, bears are. Research confirms bears are an important food source, especially in summer and autumn.   

Why is it some males (referring to both species) decide for a confrontation? The answer is we don't know. We do know bears in general are food-orientated, whereas tigers are more territorial. They take violations in this department very personal.  

What 'Apex' found, suggests the outcome of a serious confrontation isn't a result of size. If size would be the only factor determining the outcome of a fight, tigers, apart from the occasional exception, wouldn't stand a chance. Reliable information, however, says it can go both ways. Male tigers, if anything, seem to have the best chance in a confrontation, but that's still very different from 'dominating' a male brown bear at every confrontation.               
  
Always remember reality is very different from what you read. Also remember circumstances have an effect on the way wild animals interact. Circumstances change all the time. And in the end, there's individual variation. Every adult tiger or bear is an individual. You just never know. 

How to learn 
 
The best way to get to a bit of insight is to find good information. It's there. Good information has to be discussed. Not easy at the best of times. Remember a true discussion is different from trying to confirm an idea. The main ingredient of a productive discussion is an open mind. That and respect for those with a different opinion. At all times. 

Biologists and rangers 

Biologists try to understand animals at the level of averages. For them, it's about patterns. Conservation is about knowledge and understanding. 

The Yuri Kya's of this world walk the taiga every day. They know, and understand, those making their home in the taiga. For them, it's about individuals. Specific knowledge. Reply