ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[Apex Titan]

(01-13-2023, 05:51 PM)Matias Wrote: hello @Apex Titan 

I understand your arguments very well, you have posted an enormous amount of material and there is no question as to what you understand about this whole predation story. If you and I read the same book, our observations will still be somewhat different. In the specific case, I brought an element that I consider very valid in this context, based on the reasonableness of perceiving that there are unknown circumstances involving two large animals that confront each other – there is always an aggressor and an assaulted, and only tigers have a relationship direct interest in hunting a bear (for food). In a fight so long that it left many traces on the landscape, it would also inflict wounds on the victor. Can you accept this? I cannot digest all this context for a simple analysis that this tiger (Odyr) specializes in hunting large male brown bears. It is unlikely to be just that.

I kept thinking about the combat itself, and I can't close my thoughts without looking into the existence of something peculiar to this big bear (internal injuries and any wounds, muscle sprains that affected its mechanical capacity, etc.), or even the geography of the landscape. It's my way of seeing and assimilating the subject that doesn't need to deny your argument in any way.

In 1953, “Animal Behaviour” was published for the first time, scientifically approaching articles, essays and studies compiling all available material on all aspects of animal behavior. Since that time, studies have already predicted that animal behavior was something very complex, which escaped the determinisms and stereotypes common at the time, such as the reductionism of behavior by instinct. Since then, as research has progressed, it has become clear that animals make choices, decide paths, set up strategies, carry out medium/high complexity analyses, hesitate, and have multiple attitudes within their own species. What I can say to you in a very constructive way is to keep your eyes and mind open – more interesting is the path and not the arrival. We are always open to good information and good analyzes that find logic in some aspect of animal life and ecology. We should not stick only to the facts, since behind the attitudes and decisions taken there is a whole world of possibilities that can hardly be closed. We should not be replicators of the position of a biologist A or B (it is a point of support, a consistent parameter that opens up possibilities and not that closes a subject), we are free to conjecture and complement any point of view or analysis; after all, how to explain a fact without a set of thoughts that can better compose this situational picture, in a predictive way and with good consistency.

My best lengths!

I understand where you're coming from. You brought up some logical and interesting points. I'm a person who adamantly believes in the existence of Bigfoot (Sasquatch), Aliens and paranormal entities etc, so trust me, I'm a very open-minded person. However, in this case, I'm basing my arguments and opinions on the facts, statements and reports from the specialists and authorities on this incident, especially of those who examined the battle-ground/kill-site and found the killed bear.

What I find interesting, is that highly trained and experienced forest guards/rangers, were not surprised that a moderate-sized tiger was able to kill a significantly larger adult male brown bear in a prolonged fight, without sustaining any injuries. The specialists didn't even speculate, nor assume that the killed bear could have possibly been a "weakened" or "sick" individual. Nothing. The question is why?

Even the first-hand reports from the "Reserved Amur region" only noted how the killed bear was of "impressive size" and had a palm callus width of 18 cm. But no mention/assumptions of the bear possibly being already weakened or sick etc, prior to his death by the tiger. 

As to the fight, yes, I can see why some people may find it hard to accept that a smallish tiger killed a much larger, healthy male brown bear in a prolonged battle without getting injured himself, but its also a fact that every fight is different. Sometimes a tiger will not get injured in a fight against a large bear, sometimes it will. It depends.

For example, the tiger Dima killed a very large female brown bear in a prolonged fight, but was never reported to have been injured from the battle at all. But in another case (one year after Dima's death), in August 2001, another male tiger also killed a very large, mature female brown bear in a fierce, prolonged fight as well, but was reported to have sustained only a minor injury (a bleeding wound), but nothing serious. One could say that how can a tiger fight another large, immensely powerful and similar-sized predator in a head-on fight, but in one case not get injured at all, and in another case, only get a minor injury. But it happened, confirmed by the STP biologists (Seryodkin, Miquelle, Goodrich, Kerley et al). And both large brown bear sows were killed by those tigers in summer, when bears are in their peak condition, weights and full strength!

Remember the Jim Corbett account of an exceptionally large male Himalayan black bear fighting a tiger?  Even in this case, the huge bear, despite his massive size and strength, was unable to even injure the tiger, whereas the tiger inflicted some brutal damage on the big bear. The bear was literally scalped to the bone and its nose torn in half.

But then there are rare cases of tigers getting injured in fights by smaller sloth bears. Why is this? How comes in some cases sloth bears can manage to injure a tiger in a serious fight, whereas the much larger brown bears and huge male Asiatic black bears fail to do so in some cases??  

What this shows is that every fight is different. Maybe Odyr is a highly adept bear-killer who was able to avoid any injuries in the fight. 

There are also cases of tigers killing 'large' and 'very large' male (Ussuri) wild boars in prolonged fights without sustaining any injuries whatsoever. But then there are rare cases of other tigers getting injured in fights with large male wild boars, and even in extremely rare cases, even killed. So again, it depends.

The juvenile Amur tiger 'Kuzya' who was only 1.5 years old, killed a very large male wild boar in a tough fight without getting injured himself, but then there are other cases of fully mature adult tigers getting injured by smaller boars. So a fight between a tiger and a large, well-armed and dangerous animal has many faces. In some cases the tiger may get injured, but then in many other, or most cases against the same dangerous animal, the tiger doesn't get injured in the fight and is able to destroy his/her opponent. Keep this in mind as well.

Maybe the tiger Odyr's lighter weight, speed and agility gave it an advantage in the fight against the bigger, slower and more cumbersome brown bear in the snow? Reply