ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[GuateGojira]

(04-13-2022, 07:33 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: Remember, the 212 kg wild Amur tiger weighed by the Siberian Tiger Project biologists was a young male aged 4 years old. Not a fully-grown adult male aged 6+years old. Biologists only weighed this male tiger when he was still relatively young. Its likely he weighed well over 212 kg as a mature adult tiger.

Also, I wouldn't say that there's "no doubt" that Bengal tigers are the heaviest wild tigers in modern times. The weight samples of modern wild Amur tigers is far from conclusive. We need a large sample of full-grown healthy adult male Amur tigers to be weighed (from various regions) to get to a more accurate conclusion. 

There are some huge male Amur tigers being captured on video/camera traps in both Northeast China and the Khabarovsk region in Far East Russia. We don't know the weights of these big males but they look like they easily rival the sizes and weights of the huge Kaziranga, Dudhwa, Nepalese and Central Indian tigers we see. I know you want and prefer scientific reports, but Feng Limin, a tiger biologist from China did say that he and his colleagues have captured and weighed some big male Amur tigers weighing 250 kg and 270 kg.

It seems to me that big cat weights (at least tigers & lions) is your expertise, so don't you think we need a more reliable and conclusive weight sample of modern wild Siberian tigers to get to a more accurate average weight conclusion??

I'm not saying or implying that Bengal tigers are not the heaviest extant wild felids today, but my guess is (I'm confident) that wild Amur tigers today are just as heavy on average and maximum weights based off the reports, numerous videos and camera trap photos from Northeast China and Russia. So I personally think that both Bengal and Amur tigers are the worlds largest and heaviest extant felids today. I don't think its safe to conclude yet that Bengal tigers are "no doubt" heavier on average than Amur tigers in modern times. We don't know for sure.

I remember some years ago, the Russian biologist Krechmar also mentioned that he comes across the tracks of some giant male Amur tigers in the forest, but these huge males are not captured by biologists and researchers. Alexander Batalov has also found the tracks, tree markings and traces of some very large male tigers in the Durminskoye Reserve.

I don't know the weight of this tiger, but here's a video of Chinese and Russian biologists measuring a wild Amur tiger: (Unknown age & weight)

When the tiger "Luke" was recorded at 212 kg he was already an adult of more than 4 years, of course that he could weight more but that is just speculation, as he also could weight less, like the "ups and downs" of tiger "Dale", for example.

Afirming that Bengal tigers are the biggest cats in modern days is not a random statement, but a conclution based in the data available and supported by scientists that worked with tigers in both fields (Indian subcontinen and Russian Far East). So, I sustain the fact that there is no doubth about it. By the way, no sample is "conclusive", as all the studies made with cats use small samples and after that they infer the results using what is available, so that is not a valid excuse. In fact, the only thing that I can see and that I stated long before in other posts (I suggest you to read all my posts and not just discuss about the last one) is that there is a tendency in incresing the size of modern Amur tigers, with average figures that change from 180, to 190 and to 200 kg, depending of the samples, year and regions (the figure of 190 kg is overall). 

Video and camera traps are not reliable at all, they may be sugestive but there is no proof of its reliability, check this male for example:

*This image is copyright of its original author

All people said that was a huge male of no less than 250 kg, but actually this tiger labeled as PT-85 weighed just 200 kg.

Check also tiger "Luke":

*This image is copyright of its original author

This is when he weighed 212 kg, but I am sure that anyone could estimate a bigger weight for him. So the use of photos and videos to estimate the size is not reliable, unless that you have a point of reference and even then, the estimation will be accurate only for body size, but not for weight.


Maybe because you are new here, you still don't know the several problems that we had in the past with the statements of experts about the weight of they tigers-lions. Some times we can be sure that the figures that they propose are real, but when we confirm them, they were actually just estimations. Check the case of two Amur tigers that were stated to weight 220 and 250 kg in the past and by reputable sources, but after confirming the figures with the persons in the field the real weights for those specimens were 200 and 185 kg respectively! That is why many of us here are not sure to accept these figures of 225-250-270 kg so lightly, unless that we can actually corroborate that the figures are real. Don't missunderstand me, I will be more than happy to corroborate that modern Amur tigers are reaching the weights of the old days, but like Mazák and Pocock, we don't want to make the old mistakes again and we are going to be cautious this time.

Again, the afirmation that Bengal tigers are the heaviest in these days was not made in one day, it took time to reach that conclution and nothing suggest that is different at 2022, unless that we can get the corroboration of the figures that are quoted above. Even then, it will only suggest that Amur and Bengal tigers are of the same size, which is something that we already know. So, for the moment, the only wild cat that reached the 272 kg figure in scientific sources, without been a cattle eater or a freak outlier, is the Bengal tiger.

About Krechmar and Batalov, as far I know they had not captured, measured and weighed any tiger, so they estimations, although respetable, are not usefull. They are experts in tiger ecology and are great sources about that, but for morphology issues we need real measurements and weights, not just visual reports.

Maybe you are going to think that I am too strict and certainly you are not going to accept my conclutions and statements, but I can guarantee you that my attitude is based in experience of previous situations and that is also why Pckts is also very cautions. Let me put an example: let's say that we accept these three weights of 227, 250 and 270 kg, we put them in a document and quote them as source. What do you think that is going to happen when this people quoted came and says that the figures are incorrect, or that are false? Or what happen if they accept that they were only estimations? Where is going to be our reputation? You see the point, if we preach accuracy we need to be the first one in accomplish it, no matter what and proving that we are not biased in favor of one animal or other.

I hope you can understand my point and if you or "Betty" can get the confirmation on the three weights, I will the first one in include the confirmed weights in our tables. And check that I am not saying "my" tables, but "ours", as all this work is the accomplishment of the work of all here in Wildfact, we make a team work, always. Reply