Animal trainers

[peter]

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This post is a result of what was posted in the last days. My advice is to read it well.

1 - Forum rules

This forum has rules. All members have to respect them. If a rule is broken, there will be a warning. If the warning is ignored, it's game over. Remember there's no leniency. Here's why.

The owners and mods of this forum don't want lion versus tiger 'debates'. The reason is these 'debates' resulted in wars in just about every forum. The wars resulted in a bad climate, a lot of crap and, in the end, destruction. Not happening over here.

After your second post in this thread, Majingilane reminded you of the rules. He's our lion mod. I will back him any time. If Majingilane offers an advice, you take it serious. It's a fact you ignored his warning. As a result, your last two posts in this thread were deleted. Remember this is the last warning.  

As for your two deleted posts.

2 - Captive big cats

Most posters don't seem to realize that captivity has profound consequences. Those who top the food chain in particular are affected. The reason is big predators do not get the opportunity to learn and develop. In many respects, they remain infants all their life.    

A century ago, authorities already noticed that captive tigers, in zoos all over the world, were mere shadows of their wild relatives. The most likely reason is no development whatsoever. Another is those who breed them have very little knowledge. As there is nobody to stop them, they often do as they like. The consequences often are profound.  

Tigers are more affected by captivity than lions. Adult wild tigers are professional big game hunters. Learning how to hunt and how to overcome resistance of powerful animals on your own takes a lot of time. It also is dangerous. Those who reach adulthood have to earn and defend a territory. When they succeed and keep it up for a few years, they will breed. Not seldom, only the best breed. In captivity, the essence of tigers is lost and it shows. In captive tigers, you still see the fundaments of what a tiger is. It takes a long time to affect the bones and structure, but muscles are affected immediately. Same for mental development.

Lions, in contrast to tigers, are social big cats. In captivity, they also live in prides. Hunting skills, of course, are lost, but social skills are not. Males in particular interact in more or less the same way as their wild relatives. This mean they, in contrast to tigers, face competition. Nearly everything they do is affected by it. Males strive for dominance, they eat first and they often fight, just like their wild counterparts. As they don't need energy to hunt anymore, chances are the extra energy is invested in competition. Captive male lions, if anything, are even more aggressive than their wild counterparts. Will captivity affect their body? Of course it does, but not to the degree seen in tigers. As they don't need to hunt anymore and eat enough (not always true for wild male lions), there's no need for athletic bodies and endurance anymore. Compact and robust bodies would be much more appropiate for captive male lions and that's what we get. Although there's no reliable information, my guess is captive male lions are more robust and heavier than their wild relatives.

All in all, the conclusion is that captive tigers in particular degenerate. After some generations, you will see a parody on a wild tiger. This is not the case for captive male lions for the reasons mentioned above. Does it show in captive animals? Yes. Although a bit shorter, captive male lions generally are more robust and heavier than male tigers at equal length.             

3 - Fights between lions and tigers

Discussions in forums about lions and tigers usually are about who would win in a fair fight. When you look closer, they are about fights between adult males of similar age and weight. The door to this department, as explained above, will not be opened in this forum. This post is the exception to the rule and it will stay the exception.

I have read many books and never found anything about interactions between wild lions and wild tigers. This leaves fights between captive lions and tigers. The only ones who have reliable information are trainers. Although most trainers with experience keep to themselves regarding lions, tigers and fights, some talked. I noticed that those who wrote books usually have outspoken opinions. They, however, represent only a fraction of all. For this reason, I interviewed a number of those who didn't write books. Trainers, a director of a big cat facility and a director of training facility. What did I hear?

a - Trainers and directors of training or big cat facilities

The director of the training facility and the director of a big cat facility saw many animals and interactions between big cats of different species, whereas the experience of trainers is limited to the animals they had. Did the difference show? Yes. Directors had a wider scope than trainers.

The trainers I interviewed roughly underline the stories I read in books, meaning they, more often than not, favour one of the two. The result is a bit of a mixed bag. Most trainers don't like mixed acts. It takes a lot of energy to prevent and solve problems and it's too stressful in the long run. If they continue with a mixed act, many do so without male lions. The reason is they usually are more aggressive than male tigers.

The director of the training facility told me lions tend to gang up on tigers. This has an effect, because lions have more experience and more organisation. At the level of groups, lions, therefore, often dominate tigers. Tigers, however, seem to be able to learn. This means they too are able to get to some kind of organisation. Who dominates who seems to depend on encounters between alpha animals. When the alpha male lion is big and experienced, he might dominate the tiger. This will affect the situation for some time to come. If the situation is reversed (most fights are close), tigers dominate. When lions dominate, the general situation will be quite stable. When tigers take over, it usually isn't. There was a good evaluation about lions and tigers in Everland in the Carnivora Forum. Find it. 

At the level of individuals, the situation is a bit different. Male lions are more aggressive and often initiate a fight. Although it is a close call in most cases, tigers seem to be a bit more able in this respect. Most fights are very short. Male lions often have the initiative, whereas male tigers seem to resort to damage control and wait for an opportunity. When a chance is offered and the tiger scores a few points, the lion usually retreats. Few fights go all the way, because trainers intervene. At times, however, fights can't be stopped and one of the two is severely wounded or killed. The outcome of a fight usually depends on size, character and chance. If a tiger really goes for a fight, it often is the result of a dislike or a fued. Both emotions are deep-rooted, which means that the problem will never be really solved. This will result in permanent tensions. Lions, most often, fight for dominance. They have more experience, but even degenerated captive tigers remain hunters with more 'feel' for a deciding move.   

b - My experience

In nearly every facility I visited where lions and tigers were neighbours, male lions challenged male tigers. Not the other way round. As soon as two males agreed to exchange their intentions at the bars, the other lions became interested. Not so in tigers. When males engaged in mock fights, lions compared to freight trains (full throttle), whereas tigers reminded me of heavyweight boxers moving all the time. Although they're close in the department of strength, tigers are more athletic as a general rule. I saw a large male tiger surprised by his neighbour jump out of trouble. The rumours about large tigers jumping 6 feet or more into the air out of nowhere most definitely are not the result of stories. They also are lightning fast.  

Male lions are not interested in athletics. Their trade is infighting and their bodies evolved for just that. Same for the skull. Meaby more so than tigers, they are able to take damage (to the rump and skull in particular) while mauling their opponent. Not saying that tigers don't get involved in deadly fights with animals of different species (they do) or that they can't take damage, but a hunter at heart would want to avoid a crippling injury.

c - Conclusions

All in all, we have one able to take damage and specializing in mauling, whereas the other, more catlike perhaps, is more athletic in order to get to the core of things as fast as possible. I don't think there's a lot to choose between them for strength and endurance (all stories on tigers and no endurance are crap), but one could say the one initiating the fight may have a slightly better defence (a more compact body), whereas the one defending is a bit faster and has a slightly more developed mode of attack. And then there is the mane and individuality. Very close, I think.

As to bears and big cats. I agree with the post of Brotherbear (this thread). When bears are about similar in weight as big cats, I favour the cats in a fair scrap. When the bear is over, say, 450 pounds, the situation changes in his favour. A tiger in particular might be able to take him out when he has an advantage, but when the bear is able to prevent that and forces the tiger to engage him head-on, I slightly favour the bear.  

One more remark to finish this paragraph. Everything discussed relates to captive lions and tigers. Wild lions and tigers (and Indian tigers in particular) are very different from their captive relatives for the reasons discussed in -2-. This means the conclusions do not extend to them.       


4 - Organized fights

The Romans organized fights between lions and tigers, but they were not the only ones. According to Marco Polo, Chinese emperors also had trained 'lions' (tigers) they used for hunts. India also was heavily involved (Maharajahs in particular had motive, means and opportunity). My guess is there was a lot of betting. When money enters, everything (referring to, for example drugs) is possible.  

Fights between lions and tigers of similar age and size have been organized for centuries. This should answer just about all questions: The outcome was unpredictable.
           
5 - To conclude

This thread is about captive animals and trainers and it will remain a thread about captive animals and trainers. Trainers are on their way out. Knowledge will be lost. Anyone able to post good info is invited to do so.

I don't mind info on brawls when trainers are discussed, but the focus should be on something else. Members going for a versus debate will be banned sooner or later. This doesn't mean that a trainer like Beatty is out. All trainers have knowledge and we are interested in all. How to debate Beatty and avoid a debate on lion versus tiger? Up to you. 

Although it may seem different, we really want lion, tiger and bear posters. Good posters posting good information. Anything goes, but rules always comes first. Remember that Majingilane is the lion mod. He represents all mods and both owners. If he talks, you listen. Reply