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Asiatic Lion - Data, Pictures & Videos
Asiatic Lion - Data, Pictures & Videos
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Asiatic Lion - Data, Pictures & Videos
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Right.. I'd forgotten all about the ladies. Thank you @Spalea, the lionesses in your video reminded me!
I'd asked a few who frequent Gir but have visited to Tiger Reserves as well, about size of the lionesses there. Got reply that it's similar to the tigresses which i took with a pinch of salt for obvious reasons. But then, this study conducted across several zoos all over India was shared by @Betty ( Download link) once, before @peter did. Quote:Apparently the lionesses in captivity have almost same weight-range as the males & average above 150kg! In the wild, it's not uncommon for males (not bigger ones) to be seen with similarly sized, sometimes even larger, females either.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author @Wolverine Think of it this way instead... Weight of Bengal tiger today is higher by almost 50lbs. Could this have happened as hunting stopped? ..or because numbers shot up in small protected enclaves, thus bolstering natural selection? Maybe the change, if any, in weight of modern Asiatic lions vis-a-vis pre1950 ones would shed some light. It's a crime to not be curious! 
@Rishi :
About #421: The human predation is particular because the hunters always want to kill the most marvelous beasts in order to have the most beautiful trophies. So what are these '' most marvelous beast" among tigers and lions ? The males because of their bigger size and plus in the case of lions because of the mane. The nature, I am convinced about, reacts against this intensiv and excessiv predation by making the individual males less attractive, thus smaller size, less generous mane and so on. Among the elephants the tusks become smaller, the rhinos' horns smaller too and so on. The Siberian Tiger becoming smaller in size and weight than their India congeners. In the "natural way", the animal predators at first kill the weakest prey in order to allow the safest and strongest to survive and reproduce, them and thus their genes. The actual asiatic lions are the survivors of an intensiv slaughter which almost exterminated the whole specy in the beginning of the XXth century when only one or two dozen individuals remained. So, perhaps it' s not very amazing, IMO, that the male lions have not recovered their ancient full size. Before seeing the numerous photos you showed here, I believed the asiatic lion was a weakened specy, because their critical number during the 1910s was too low, thus big risk of consanguinity, birth of sick individuals. Thank to your photos and other ones, I' m convinced that this animal specy is "safe" but, perhaps, its "morphological recovery" is still in progress. This is only an hypothesis. (05-12-2018, 12:34 AM)Spalea Wrote: In the "natural way", the animal predators at first kill the weakest prey in order to allow the safest and strongest to survive and reproduce, them and thus their genes. I'll not again get into whether numbers ever did actually fall to few dozens or not... Made my stand clear in #365. Remember @TheLioness's post #375 where a 225kg male fell from a bridge & died? Unfortunately my efforts to find its photos were futile, so i don't know what a 500lb Asiatic looks like. But it's known that only largest of specimens can reach that mark. These maybe? (It isn't my area of expertise. Guys, if you think someone's experienced enough to make informed estimate, tag him/her.)  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author I don't think they are getting any larger than those! It's the average that's likely to increase. But i agree with the rest. Yes, as artificial slaughter stopped & natural selection took over there is hope. That's why i'm so against the Relocation Project even though @Wolverine hates me for it.  BUT as you yourself said, the "recovery" is still only a hypothesis. If i can get new numbers, then we can compare them to the previous ones (from half-century ago) & finally get some confirmation... for better or for worse!  (05-12-2018, 04:02 PM)Rishi Wrote:Big powerful Asiatic Lions they look very good(05-12-2018, 12:34 AM)Spalea Wrote: In the "natural way", the animal predators at first kill the weakest prey in order to allow the safest and strongest to survive and reproduce, them and thus their genes. 
"One might not agree with Gujarat FD's actions, but their capabilities are undeniable!"
For 70 years they are not capable even to relocate the maldharis, so big are their capabilities..... Since 70's maldhari families don't trust any more to the Gujarati FD and don't want to move out of Gir forest anymore even for big money compensation. They have big ever increasing families, Gir is not full scale wild ecosystem, its a mix-vegi salad, human-animal aria. So called "maldhari relocation" is the single most unsuccessful act of human relocation in the history of Indian wildlife protection. Gujarati authorities are not capable even to declare all Gir forest a national park, but Gir national park continue to cover only miserable 1/6 of the total Gir forest aria... Once upon a time Ancient India was home of 40% of world human population, she was half of the humanity itself, India was called "The Golden Bird", "Land of the Wonders" the richest country in the planet with unthinkable and uncountable treasures. If today's Indians want to revive their country they have to think with scale, ambition and magnitude. How India could become again great country if today's Indians are not capable to relocate even a dozen of lions a few hundred miles away within their own country?.... U n b e l i e v a b l e! (05-14-2018, 10:09 AM)Wolverine Wrote: "One might not agree with Gujarat FD's actions, but their capabilities are undeniable!" You're not wrong, per se. Of the 10k Maldharis, majority were shifted out of the Gir protected area since the '80s, mostly from the core area & around. But after while, many just sold their allocated lands & came back. They are after all, pastoral herders! As of mid-2016, an estimated 450 families were living at the fringes of Gir in 40 ness, their makeshift mini-villages. A survey was ordered to access the situation before planning on how to tackle it. (More details)  *This image is copyright of its original author After the Forest Rights Act, to relocate indigenous population you'll have to prove that their coexistence with wildlife isn't possible. Although conflict is minimal & half of lions diet is their cattle, they'll probably be resettled along the forest edges with some grazing permission. As far as the Reintroduction Project is concerned, i have mixed feelings. On one hand, Greater Gir is on a sort of "Darwinism overdrive" due to the space/resource constraints & nothing can replicate that in Kuno. Even if we'd had a best case scenario & to ensure the success of the relocation, only highest quality specimens are chosen (highly unlikely), it'll take much more than the planned dozen to ensure enough genetic variety. I'd rather have tigers there, given it connects Ranthambore to Madhav NP & rest of Central India Tiger Landscape. On the other hand... (02-27-2018, 07:55 PM)Matias Wrote: In my opinion the Kuno Palpur reserve is too small for a translocation program, it does not have enough territory to manage a genetically healthy population in a self-sufficient manner. The existence or not of resident tigers is a minor fact, I do not think tigers are the major territorial limiters for lions. The population increase will tiger a territorial expansion disordered by areas and territories unfit for such predators. The population of Rajasthan does not have the tolerance of the people of Gujarat. When a group of lions is implanted in Kuno, all the life references of these lions are in Gir, they will continually search for "references" and not finding them will continue to search, breaking the boundaries of Kuno so fast as possible. I believe that Kuno-Palpur is, in essence, a great marketing project.(I'm replying to your post in Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project here. With the lion transfer being negotiated, better to get people acquainted to Kuno.) ...Kuno is perfect! With almost 1000 km² of protected habitat have been developed & with another 5000 km² around it, Kuno-Palpur has potential to be everything Greater Gir isn't & much more! The local population is also reasonably low & would soon learn to live with their "friendly neighbourhood Asiatic lion".  *This image is copyright of its original author PS: If this census really finds tiger presence in Gujarat's Dangs forest, then maybe MP could exchange tigers for more lions. But if resident tiger population is identified in Kuno instead, then that might become another issue.
Brother, I have read Matias's post, its quite interesting. I agree that if Gujarat loose its monopoly on lions probably Gujarati people will be less enthusiastic to protect lions. That's important moment.
BUT its not true that translocation to Kuno-Palpur sanctuary is a "marketing" project, this project is supported by scientific community in India and abroad, Asiatic lions do need second home. Secondly, the goal is not to create a genetically sufficient and independent lion population in Kuno-Palpur sanctuary. Kuno will be a back up population, genes of Kuno lions have to be artificially refreshed by humans with Gir lions and opposite. Its the case with all big cats in India, including tigers because its not possible to connect with corridors all big cats subpopulations in increasingly fragmentated wild habitat among ever increasing human population. History shows that in any single spot of the planet periodically, at least once per century explode a civil war, civil conflict, and the wild animals are among the first victims. What will happen with lions if after 60, 80 or 100 years civil war starts in Gujarat??? Now everything is calm and peaceful but future is unpredictable.... Gujarati lions need a back-up population. Yes, maldharis are very nice, very interesting folks, they really respect lions. But there is a problem wit maldharis. As all humans maldharis have kids, many kids, they multiply.... Now inside the Gir forest there are let's say ... 3000 maldharis, after 20 years they will be 4000, after 50 years - 5000... in one moment they will turn Gir forest into desert. Soon or late has to be taken painfull decision to relocate maldharis or at least majority of them. If Gurati authorities want to be respected they have to declare all Gir forest a national park, not only 1/6 of it. Yes, lions are increasing, but Gir forest is in danger... 
@Rishi, say: Kuno is perfect! With almost 1000 km² of protected habitat have been developed & with another 5000 km² around it, Kuno-Palpur has potential to be everything Greater Gir isn't & much more!
The local population is also reasonably low & would soon learn to live with their "friendly neighbourhood Asiatic lion". Correct, 1000 km² effectively protected. I believe that these other 5000 km² today is not in any protective environment, itis not safe habitat nor for tigers the more for this new lions. Otherwise, these 5000 km² would be fully used to connect tigers according to the map presented. Your link and connection is still a product of intentions. I believe that the translocation of these lions should not depend solely on these protected 1000 km², much less depend on the tolerance of these people who live in these adjacent areas. In a planned translocation, areas contiguous to their formally protected area can not be included as a suitable lion habitat, since they are effectively not. Why not join all these areas into one national park? What is the human quantity in these 5000 km²? My intention is not to make it difficult, to place barriers, but rather to understand how these 5000 km² of available habitat can effectively be used as soon as the lions are translocated. In order to reach the 1000 km² protected area, Rajasthan had to add areas, which, it seems to me, are still occupied by people. As you said: Kuno-Palpur has potential to be everything Greater Gir is not & much more! However, it still needs to be worked on to be used as a suitable habitat for lions. If these 6000 km² were formally protected, including displaced human populations, I would agree that a selectively limited population of lions could not only live there, but also cohabit with tigers. It would be an interesting and very rewarding experience for wildlife professionals. I do not know why Indians have been convinced that 40- or 60-thousand-hectare areas are enough for a tiger population to thrive. The large number of tigers in unprotected areas (buffer zones and adjacent areas), as well as the existence of few adult males in protected areas, is the clearest and most evident reflection that they inhabit insufficient areas. Not to mention that all national parks and protected areas in their biomes, depending on the particularities of each of these areas, has between 40 to 75% of area fully suitable for tigers. In Gujarat, a population of about 600 lions has led them to inhabit an area of two million two hundred thousand hectares. This expansion, obviously, is due to the multiple needs of survival, facilitated by human tolerance and adequate prey. As the areas effectively protected are small, and it seems to me that there is no second area as an option, this leads one to believe by conviction or lack of choice that the 1000 km² is sufficient for this translocation. The corridors serve not only for breeding and genetic health, but also to ease conflicts and provide young males with relatively appropriate areas for dispersal, and this view that life professionals India's wilderness with regard to tigers is being replicated with lions, even knowing that they need much larger spaces. "The local population is also reasonably low and would soon learn to live with their" friendly neighborhood Asiatic lion ". You're being very optimistic. Correct me if I'm wrong. The Maldhari tolerance was achieved from top to bottom. the Nawab of Junagardh and his son through "laws / decrees" made the protection of lions a priority, even with serious criminal sanctions. Over time, new values have been built and their protection no longer depends on laws and decrees. "I do not know if this tolerance already existed between the Maldharis and the lions in the nineteenth century" "Darwinism overdrive":  @Wolverine, Your concerns about the Maldharis are mine as well. Although they are not hostile to lions and their livestock compose their feeding, their high quantitative pressures and unbalances the habitat and, of course, their expansion should be avoided. I also share that a new home in the face of the possibility of any catastrophe threatening the lions is desirable. Formalization to increase the area of the Gir shrine is also common sense and desirable. The only remark I am making is that the large-scale withdrawal of the Maldharis from the region may bring more trouble than solution, and that may be why the Maldhari issue has been treated carefully and in homeopathic doses for decades. Overall I realize that I, you and Rishi have close opinions, small differences are due to the degree and not the nature of the facts. Translocation sooner or later will happen, that is fact. Although my opinions are not favorable to Kuno-Palpur today, my wish is that I will be fully successful. As we know, when a translocation of predators is done in a large meticulously planned and adequate area, numerous problems arise and challenge ... It is possible that after this translocation, as the problems arise, the government of Rajasthan formalize the protection of new land, and face concretely the local population issue. In this context, where at least I realize that there are many gaps that should be addressed before establishing a new population of lions, I have used the concept of a marketing product. As I focus more on African issues, and see such well-planned and executed projects facing difficult-to-solve problems, this "usual modus operandi" in India is a factor that I still do not know how to deal with / measure / understand. A country where the Supreme Court of Justice determine and the government does not obey. Reading only does not allow us to understand culture, habits and customs. Only a resident like our Rishi friend can clarify how the thinking of Indian wildlife professionals works.
Because the prides are always dispersed & there's a lot of territorial overlap, Asiatic lion social structure is more like tigers' than lion.
The pride-males rule over an area, with one or more duo/trio of lionesses (instead of lone females as in case of tigers) who aren't always "faithful". The following story is a rare & fascinating case, in that backdrop... In Rare Incident, Lion Single-Handedly Raises Cubs After Their Mother Dies! May 15, 2018  *This image is copyright of its original author Although lions are one of the most social species in the cat family, Asiatic lions usually never assume the role of a lioness or actively take part in rearing cubs. Typically, a lioness is responsible for teaching her cubs how to hunt and protects them from harm. If she dies, the “aunts” of the cubs take over their responsibility. Aunt, in this context, refers to other lionesses in a pride. In such a scenario, a lion living near the Bedhia village of Gir-Somnath district, named “Bedhia Male” by forest officials, has rewritten parenting rules in the last abode of Asiatic lions in the world. Bedhia Male's three little cubs were left motherless about two years ago, when the lioness got electrocuted while entering a farm. The cubs were just three months old then, and very vulnerable, as there were no other lionesses in that pride. Jalpan Rupapara, a naturalist working in Gir-Somnath, told, “Never in our wildest imagination did we expect the lion to become this responsible for its cubs. In fact, a lioness generally keeps her cubs away from the father, as big cats are known to attack their litter if they suspect the cubs’ paternity."  *This image is copyright of its original author For over a year and a half, the lion took its cubs under its guardianship, protecting them from harm. Purvesh Kacha, a naturalist and anaesthetist who works with Rupapara in Gir-Somnath, claims that Bedhia has even avoided mating with other lionesses, fearing that the “step-mother” may harm his cubs. He also taught the cubs to hunt prey and sustain themselves. The cubs are about two years old now, the time for them to start getting independent. “These days the cubs have begun to hunt, while the lion closely follows them, keeping a watch,” said Rupapara, adding that “The cubs even share their food with their father!" A must-read detailed account by the researchers on Facebook.
@Rishi :
About #430: The lions will never cease to amaze us ! To know that a male lion is able to play a role which is normally devoted to the females... I'm puzzled. Serious circumstances make men great... Would it be possible to believe that, individually, mammalian carnivores can perform (improvise ?) a new function if these circumstances require it ? Of course, we will never know only a tiny percentage of what really happens within the wild nature. To be meditated...
@Rishi In regard to Post # 430
A remarkable story !!! Some points that caught my attention: the age of only three months, where milk is still part of the diet, the couple of lions, ie the absence of one more female, and the sex of the three cubs - by the two photos posted I would say what are certainly 2 males and 1 with undefined sex (who knows more a male). Hence arise the anecdotal (important but not measurable) that show that situations and family ties are very strong and can reorient behavior. There is no way to imagine how close this pair of lions was and why not talk about "love" transmitted to the cubs for greater attention to sentimental and blood ties. I do not know why we were so surprised after so much evidence and stories around the world that we see that mammals do not have predictable behavior. Labeling and predicting attitudes is a human invention. What can we say about the information of the naturalist Purvesh Kacha that Bedhia ignored other females while choosing to educate / protect his cubs? "Anthropomorphism is something I feel we should avoid because it implies that we are separated, loose, above, etc., the more we are part of nature and not separated from her, the better the chances of understanding it and not controlling it"
@Spalea @Matias
Ranthambore's tiger T-25 made headlines by adopting his motherless daughters. He did exactly the same thing by shrinking his home range & actively driving away other tigresses like T-17. There have been other cases, inspite of only about 100 of India's 2500-3000 tigers being known & followed. But lions are easier to observe & still such behaviour is being recorded for the first time. So it's probably less common in them, as other lionesses tend to their dead sister's cubs. But this pride was started by just a mating pair & she had no adult daughters either.  *This image is copyright of its original author As asiatic lioness units can't practically grow beyond a certain size (2-5), larger prides keep fragmenting away all the time, both males & females. It's just as tigresses do, except the daughters break away from the mother with their own daughters/sisters after a threshold is reached & those females might split, share or squabble for the pride's lands, or settle around it. Often such young females venture into territories controlled by other males (as the "sub-prides" rarely meet unlike African lions ...& males are males... they're often allowed to linger in the area). In this case such newcomers would have been greatest threat to the cubs! So, Bedhia's shunning of females was a necessity. I think strong paternal instinct is an edge in natural selection, as good fathers would have higher likelihood of passing on their genes!  *This image is copyright of its original author
@Rishi :
About #433: sorry, but I didn't read the story of tiger T-25. Nevertheless, I told to have quoted that mammalian carnivors, not only the lions, were able to perform a new role when the circumstances required it. Quite agree with you when you told "I think such fathers would have higher chance of getting their genes passed on & strong paternal instincts should triumph natural selection!". If a behavior (paternal instinct "mutated" into maternal instinct), even improvised, allows to product with success a greater genetic diversity, so the nature will favor (favour) it.
@Spalea @Rishi
As they both saw (Post # 432), for me, Bedhia story has nothing to do with strong paternal instincts stemming from natural family commitments, or greater chance of getting her past genes, facilities of greater triumph of natural selection, or paternal instinct "mutated" in the maternal instinct, or whatever rational logical conception we use to describe this unique event. At first I also tried to understand the fact of scientifically known manners. But, in the absence of any comparative criterion, I abandoned deductive rationality. The singular nature of the fact pervades all logical understanding, and as much as we try to "clarify the why of the lion's behavior in the face of this challenge of creation," we shall err because all logic used can not be minimally proved. and such logical behavior explanations will have the same value as my anecdotal observations. There is no way to respond to what led Bedhia to abandon all the natural behavior of males that genetics took tens of thousands of years to standardize. In such cases, it is best to simply admire and contemplate. |
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