The Caspian Tiger (Panthera tigris virgata)

[lfelipe86]

(10-31-2023, 05:26 AM)Balam Wrote:

(10-31-2023, 03:35 AM)Wlfelipe86 Wrote:

(10-30-2023, 04:39 AM)Matias Wrote:

(10-28-2023, 04:01 AM)lfelipe86 Wrote: What calls my attention above everything is the consistency in reported sightings!! I´ve shared a documentary called: "on the trail of the hyrcan tiger" where a shepard tells he saw a tiger in golestan national park. Months ago i spoke to another guy who says he also witnessed a tiger kill a boar also at golestan and that he has friends who work in the park(rangers) that have seen tigers in the area too!! that is just something that can not be ignored!!!

we need to remember that asiatic lions in india have a population of around 600 now that came from a population of a few dozen!! and we can never know for sure how many are realy out there especially regarding a specie that is known to be great roamers! That is what the article i posted is all about!! the lazarus effect and others!!! Even though Dr Aliabadi may be wrong in his exemples his points are based around probable circunstaces regarding the sightings! we need to remember the zanzibar leopard for exemple! many people were probably searching for logic and insights regarding them just like you! And regarding the tiger, is good to mention, the same iranian department that a few years ago found 15cm footprints at parvar reserve!! too big to be those of a leopard!

My perspective is science, scientific articles and publications. Forest Galante filmed a leopard in Zanzibar on his program in 2018, and it seems to me that there was no subsequent confirmation, in the island's only national park, measuring less than 5,000 hectares. Years ago it is believed that villagers saw the clouded panther (neofelis nebulosa brachyura) on the island of Taiwan, after 36 years of disappearance. And so, we point out the possibilities. The point is that proof and evidence need confirmation. First, a good photo resulting from research by a qualified professional. Second, a source for genetic examinations (fur, feces...), to establish the origin; as it has been fully proven that the Gabon lion is a faithful representative of the region's lineage (Gabon/Republic of Congo). In other words, it is a lion from Gabon and not a lion in Gabon.

I understand your perspective and wrote because I thought it was worth showing an opinion contrary to this search for "evidence" that time shows, for the most part, to be unconfirmed.

The perspective is to never close the doors until all the windows are closed. But who opens the doors and who closes the windows? They are conservation scholars together with a series of professionals who, after decades of absence, dismiss the real and credible possibilities of its existence. Who's opening the windows? These are articles without any evidence to prove their existence.

Animals that never existed, like the globally known Sasquatch/Ieth, lead "thousands" of people and their organizations to keep the legend alive in people's minds. The same is also done for the "Lazarus" species.

Understand well, I don't take away your right to believe what you want to believe. I just don't give credit to news that has no proof.

If the news is fact. It will draw the attention of experts and credible publications will be published a few years after its discovery. Go to: Nature, Science Advances, MDPI, PHYS, PLOS, PNAS and see if you can find published material that confirms the presence of some missing species.

Be sure to publish what you find, but pay close attention to the source. It wouldn't be good to miss a great conservation opportunity, but don't give credit to those who don't deserve it. In order not to perpetuate narratives that justify the interest of parties that are not legitimate for conservation.

"The definition of extinction is also a philosophical challenge. For example, biologically an animal can be considered extinct, however, the animal is still seen in the activities and thoughts of the local community (the cultural and historical importance of those who lived with/heard stories about it) makes it persist a long time in the future. This is a major challenge in defining extinction because many animals still live in unscientific ways, and science cannot discuss these issues in the academic world."

I agree with everything that you wrote, however to get confirmation, effort to get those confirmations are needed!! At Zanzibar sightings were been recorded for years and nothing was done, they were always dismissed as not true! Just like caspian tigers, not only in Iran but other places like Afghanistan and Kazakhstan!! It took a foreigner(Galante) to go there and get it on camera!, If it is a viable population or not only more research can tell and again nothing has been done since than or just not enough! Many evidence of tigers have been found and they are dismissed by authorities just like the Zanzibar leopard case!!! For exemple: a few years ago, a tigress with cubs was reported near a village in Kalaleh, the authorities just dismissed it as not true because there has been no reports of tigers by officials in the area, which is again not true, many rangers have reported tigers in Golestan area over the years like i mentioned!! Scats that could have been collected have been reported by locals, pugmarks, etc... , even the iranian department found pugmarks at parvar that were been reported for years! Paul Joslin had found 17cm pugmarks in northern iran way befored those from de iranian department! those are very isolated areas! They get leopards in camera traps, they just need to take them to more isolated areas and follow the sightings! 

Unlike Zanzibar, Central asia and the middle east are huge places with many isolated areas that could still hide tigers! If an island so small like Zanzibar can hide a leopard, imagine central asia and the middle east! Your points are valid! but to get those confirmations they need go get pass their lazarus effects and others that probably are holding them back!

I really like your enthusiasm, keep in mind re: Forrest Galante that in the case of the Zanzibar leopard, without physical evidence such as a body, fur, feces, or a flesh that can be used to extract and analyze DNA, it’s challenging to definitively confirm the existence of the species. DNA analysis can provide conclusive proof of a species’ identity by comparing the genetic material with that of known specimens. While video footage like that captured by Forrest Galante can be suggestive and exciting, it’s not considered definitive proof without accompanying physical evidence that can undergo DNA analysis. This is why the scientific community typically requires such evidence before declaring that an extinct species has been rediscovered.

A part of me does hold on to the hope that some remnants of Caspian tigers remain hidden in remote Central Asia, but without solid evidence, they will remain almost cryptic in nature.

 
Yes, i know that! That is not what i´m saying. What i´m saying is that in my opinion there is not enough effort to get those conclusive evidences!! i know science need DNA, etc... to confirm if it is or not a zanzibar leopard but there is not enough effort to get thoses! Galante himself said that in a interview!

That is my point.

The same regarding the caspian tigers that may stil be out there!! Reply