Amur Tigers

[Apex Titan]

(06-05-2022, 11:19 AM)GreenGrolar Wrote:

(05-12-2022, 07:09 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: @GreenGrolar 

One thing I'll say, your a reasonable bear poster. You don't ignore evidence, you acknowledge the tigers impressive bear killing abilities/prowess and you also acknowledge the fact that tigers prey on large bears their own size and weight. This is good, so we can have a fruitful discussion on this topic.

Unlike some other bear fanboyz, especially the administrator of the bear forum who repeatedly (and deliberately) ignores the evidence and continues to spout lies, personal opinions and pure guesswork.

Quote:I guess this is the source you are referring too right? I believe it is talking about brown bears in general and the potential weight they can achieve. Tigers killing bears their own weight is impressive as pointed out. However, most brown bear subspecies seem to have a certain weight advantage over a Siberian tiger.

Larger males brown bears seem to be able to offer a decent resistance and it said the tiger is far from winning such fights very often yet it has more chance against a tigress and small tiger. Most wild animals prefer to hunt the weaker of their kind even if they have more than a 5/10 chance of killing the stronger one. 

Anyway the tiger is rank as dominant because it is an apex predator and will always have more kills even though it hunts mainly adult females. Although tigers do win at parity, most male brown bears subspecies seem to outweigh a tiger at average weights. I wish these accounts of tigers killing large bears will specify the gender.

A full-grown adult male Ussuri brown bear can weigh just 180 kg. As you know, in bear species, weight variation is very pronounced, more so than any big cat species. Seryodkin captured and weighed 3 adult male brown bears in the Sikhote-Alin Reserve, and one adult male brown bear (in autumn when bears are at their heaviest) weighed just 180 kg, the other two male bears weighed 235 kg and 165 kg. On average yes, male Ussuri brown bears are heavier than male tigers, but some individuals are significantly lighter and smaller than some male tigers.

Dunishenko stated that in fights between a tiger and very large brown bear weighing 400-600 kg, the tiger is far from winning such fights very often. Well, of course, in a fight between a tiger and huge brown bear twice his own weight or more, anything can happen. The tiger won't win such a fight "very often", but still, more often than not, the male tiger will win such a fight. This is what Dunishenko is saying. Notice, he also says tigers do not grow as big, but they compensate for the weight difference with more developed hunting skills. i.e. superior killing abilities and skill.

Hence why Dunishenko (and Aramilev) stated that a very large brown bear has more chances against a tigress or young (small) tiger, but in a fight against an adult male tiger, the bear already has less chances.

In a recent video, Aramilev stated: "An adult male tiger will always kill any bear, but a tigress or young tiger can lose to a large male brown bear."

Not only do Dunishenko and Aramilev favour the tiger in a fight against a huge male brown bear, the Russian zoologist Timofei Bazhenov also stated: "As a rule, the tiger wins."

*This image is copyright of its original author

I agree, I also wish the gender of large brown bears killed by tigers was specified. Here's an example:

Biologist Matyushkin found the remains of an adult brown bear killed by a tiger, but he never specified the gender of the killed bear, or maybe he couldn't because of the remains left. Who know's, but for all we know, this could have been an adult male brown bear killed and eaten by a tiger, its very possible. But all we can do is speculate.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Translation:

"It is noteworthy, for example, that in such a site in the middle reaches of the Beloborodovsky key, where the valley is compressed by rocky slopes, and its flat bottom is cut through by narrow hollows, along with the animals that died from tigers, the remains of red deer have been found, and the remains of an adult brown bear were also found, most likely also killed by a tiger."

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/%...frontcover

Also reported by the Moscow society of Naturalists:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/B...frontcover

Quote:Would the the bespectacled tiger killing a male brown bear be an exceptional case as a sloth bear killing a 12 year old Bengal tiger or equally unconfirmed?

I doubt any sloth bear can kill a tiger in a serious fight to death by the way although they have won some skirmishes.

The case of the huge sloth bear that allegedly "killed" that 12 year old tiger, was nothing but pure speculation by the forest officials. The report states injuries from a "large carnivore", which could easily (and way more likely) be another tiger. The officials are uncertain as to what happened to that tiger, the report is pure guesswork. They found no signs at all, of a fight between the old tiger and sloth bear. That says it all.

Unlike Batalov, who is 100% certain, and has no doubts, that the tiger 'Ochkarik' killed the huge male brown bear 'Chlamid'. So these two cases don't compare.

Yes, no sloth bear stands a chance of killing a tiger in a fight, period. Its a complete mismatch.

Quote:I believe you posted this account on Carnivora which confirms what some of the biologists say. When it says a bear with every advantage probably refers to weight advantage, strength advantage, stronger jaws (if they outweigh a tiger by a decent size and weight advantage) etc (probably refers to larger male brown bears and polar bears at least). At equal weights most Ussuri brown bears are female.

*This image is copyright of its original author

It says the bear with "every advantage", which also means with a sneak attack advantage, as mentioned also. 

Quote:Tigers do have amazing five fold armaments (agility, better killing bite, stronger jaws pound to pound, sharper claws, explosive) and are way better hunters than even the larger and stronger polar bear which can kill belugas five times its weight (making them the best hunters out of all bears). Larger male polar bears also have stronger jaws overall than tigers and lions (although the tiger and lion has stronger jaws pound to pound) and can bite through beluga hide are quicker killers than brown bears though big cats are quicker killers. There are accounts which says a bear has stronger bones and being a plantigrade can hit harder and will have more strength in pushing and pulling even at equal weights but this might not be the thread to post these accounts. However, the tiger has greater agility, a better killing bite, and a way better hunter, and quicker killer probably balances this out. I acknowledge the tiger has strong bones of its own too. I will post more on morphology at the proper thread. 

Also I agree with you that where there are an equal number of tigers and brown bears, the largest cat will have more wild boar kills on its list. No brown bear can match a tiger when it comes to hunting skills. It is much easier to find tiger on wild boar prey than it is to find a brown bear on one.

Also, remember, the tiger is more powerful than a bear. The brown bear is more stronger (referring to brute strength), but the tiger is more physically powerful/explosive. Power is different from strength. The tiger can generate its strength in a much quicker fashion with greater velocity and energy output. Which makes the tiger more powerful.

There's also the tigers huge canines, which are the largest of all the worlds terrestrial carnivores. Even a young tiger or tigress has canines that dwarf even the biggest male brown bears canines, which are generally small. So overall, the tiger has deadlier weaponry than any bear, being a natural born killer and pure predator.

No comparison here; Just look at the huge size difference in canines: The big grizzly is badly outclassed....

*This image is copyright of its original author

There doesn't have to be an equal amount of tigers and brown bears in the same area, for tigers to have more wild boar kills. There just has to be at least a decent amount of tigers in the area. Bears (brown & Himalayan bears) have always outnumbered tigers in the Russian Far East. Omnivores (bears) and ungulates always outnumber hyper-carnivorous apex predators, naturally.

In the study you posted from 1960's (or 1970's) in the Amur territory, there were barely any tigers left. They were at the brink of extinction, I think less than 50 individuals left in the entire Russian Far East. Whereas bears have always been abundant. Thats why the results were heavily biased towards brown bears having more adult wild boar kills.

But as tiger numbers increased over time, much more recent studies showed that tigers frequently hunt and kill adult male wild boar, and kill adult male wild boar at a greater frequency than brown bears, with tigers successfully hunting, fighting and killing even huge male wild boars.

Plenty of evidence and recent accounts confirms, that tigers (even juveniles, tigresses & adolescents) readily attack and kill large mature male wild boars, whereas brown bears clearly seem to avoid the big male boars.

I don't think there's any modern studies that show that brown bears frequently hunt adult male wild boars, when they hunt boars. Know of any?

Quote:I know it does not stop tigers from preying on adult bears and ungulates but brown bears do seem to have stronger bones (not saying tigers are weak as they are very powerful). The amur tiger seems to be the least lacking among pantherines might make it the strongest extant cat.

I agree with Miquelle's statement. Brown bears are built more robust than tigers, whereas tigers are built more for athleticism, speed, agility and greater power.

Although the brute strength of a tiger is legendary; Here's a tiger flipping over the carcass of a large bull gaur it had killed:

Quote:Because of the tiger's weaponary and killer instinct. Some biologist also favour leopards against gorilla. Yet there are accounts which say that the Siberian tiger will usually avoid a male Ussuri brown bear. From example, Alexander Batalov who said the bespectecled tiger killed Chamlid also said that tigers prefer to avoid male brown bears during mating season:

This is similar to the account above which says the tiger is far from winning fights very often against a large brown bear which can weigh 400, 500, and 600 kg yet it also says the same large brown bear has a better chance against a tigress and small tiger.

Yes, but remember, the mating season is different from in general (All seasons).

Batalov also reported that when tigers hunt bears (in summer) some male tigers can attack almost any bear. Which clearly implies that adult male brown bears can be preyed on by some male tigers:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Also, in the Durminsky reserve where Batalov works in, brown bears are rare because they avoid areas inhabited by tigers:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.hab.kp.ru/daily/27360.5/4541287/


We have reliable information and recent reports (2018-2022) which proves that tigers dominate and depress brown bear populations in Primorye, Khabarovsk and Northeast China. This is clear dominance from the tiger over the brown bear.

Also here's an important thing to note, not a single report or expert has said that only "female brown bears" and "young brown bears" are avoiding tigers. Reports clearly state: "brown bears" in general, which strongly indicates that brown bears of all genders and ages generally avoid areas inhabited by tigers.

The administrator of the bear forum, like always, is merely speculating based off zero evidence, that only adult female brown bears are vacating areas heavily populated by tigers. There's no shred of evidence to support his empty claims. Reports suggest that brown bears in GENERAL, (including adult male bears) avoid areas with tigers. And this point is very valid, because there are several cases observed and reported by biologists of male brown bears showing fear of tigers and avoiding them.

Even Vaillant, who talked to numerous experts and authorities, stated that although Ussuri brown bears can reach 1000 lb in weight, they have been known to flee at the sight of a tiger. So some, not all, but some full-grown adult male brown bears, even large male bears do fear tigers.

Hunter J Alain Smith travels to the Russian Far East to hunt some bears, and after a tiger sighting in the area, the next day he is told by the Russian forest rangers and guides, that they have to leave the area, because with a tiger lurking in the vicinity, the bears won't come out because "all of these bears are afraid of the tigers."

Go to the 13:18 mark:

There's just too much recent (and consistent) evidence now, that clearly proves that bears in general fear tigers and avoid them and areas inhabited by tigers. This is one of the reasons why Amur tigers are widely regarded as the owners and lord of the Amur-Ussuri forests.

Thank you very much. All animals are impressive in their own way and given the fact even a female brown bear has a thick neck etc, it is impressive that a tiger can kill one.

There are two definitions of fear: one can mean respect or the other one can mean trembling in fear.

Tigers are also more territorial than brown bears. Just as male brown bears are most aggressive during mating season, a male tiger will be most aggressive when hungry or defending his territory. Likewise both a tigress with cubs and a female brown bear with cubs will be most aggressive when protecting cubs.

Male amur tigers generally avoid male brown bears yet male brown bears prefer to rob a tigress makes me remember one thing, in martial arts, most generally pick a weaker opponent that is less likely to fight back. Just an example, if someone has a 30% chance of defeating or killing me, I would still fear that person and be more willing to fight someone who has a 10% of defeating or killing me - just from personal experience. Even the one with the lesser chance of winning can still cause damage.

The video of a tiger pulling that bull gaur is impressive but so is the video of the grizzly flipping over a bison:

As well as one decimating a area:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Not sure who the author of the book is.

And one dragging a bison carcass out of icy water:

The brown bear might not have the same bite force as the tiger but the former's bite still can inflict a certain amount of damage. Personally being killed by a tiger is quicker and less painful.

Here is an interesting size comparison between Chamlid and the tigress:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Chamlid seems to be about twice the weight of the tigress. Since the bespectacled male tiger is bigger than the female, he would be less than half the size of the the old male brown bear.

*This image is copyright of its original author

According to Peter, Warsaw claimed that Chamlid was old. This is a picture of a male Ussuri brown bear in its prime according to him.

https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-edge-of-extinction-a-the-tiger-panthera-tigris?pid=57456#pid57456

Which probably makes sense as there are old male brown bears called shatun or vulture bears which follow tigers (prefers a tigresses) around to usurp their meal. 

Here are some accounts of brown bears robbing tigers:

"Adult male brown bears are stronger and force always tigers to give up their prey. Interesting."


tigers are pure predators, as long as the bears' ration concists of meat only by 15%. Bute male bears, being stronger, sometimes can force tigers to give up their pray. Only once in 5 years during monitoring in the reserve Juravliny a case was fixed when tiger named Boris attacked a bear.




Эти два гиганта Уссурийской тайги редко взаимодействуют друг с другом, но все же, иногда встречаются... Они не являются прямыми конкурентами, поэтому редко переходят дорогу друг другу - тигр специализируется на мясе, а у медведя в годовом рационе лишь 15% животной пищи.

Но медведь может пойти отнимать добычу у тигра, особенно, если бурый- крупный самец. Он не против полакомиться лосем, кабаном, изюбрем... А если ,вдруг, медведь завалил добычу, то тигр вряд ли пойдет её отнимать, так как медведь будет яростно защищать ее. За 5 лет мониторинга, который мы проводим в заказнике "Журавлиный", мы зафиксировали единственную охоту тигра на медведя, отличился тигр Борис. Но все же, бурый медведь не является излюбленной добычей тигра, уж очень он силен, проворен и быстр! Помочь Центру-

https://www.siberian-tiger.ru/ru/campaign/help-to-save

"These two giants of the Ussuri taiga rarely interact with each other, but nevertheless, sometimes they meet ... They are not direct competitors, therefore they rarely cross the road to each other - the tiger specializes in meat, and the bear has only 15% of animal food in the annual diet. But a bear can go to take away prey from a tiger, especially if the brown is a large male. He is not against eating elk, wild boar, wapiti ... And if, suddenly, the bear has filled up the prey, then the tiger is unlikely to go to take it away, since the bear will fiercely defend it. For 5 years of monitoring, which we have been conducting in the Zhuravliny reserve, we have recorded the only tiger hunt for a bear, the tiger Boris distinguished himself. But nevertheless, the brown bear is not the favorite prey of the tiger, he is very strong, agile and fast! Help the Center-"

www.siberian-tiger.ru/campaign/help-to-save

I agree that a brown bear prefers a tigress yet some articles mention tigers in general. I don't have anymore accounts of Ussuri brown bears killing wild boars other than the ones posted here but if I find any, I will post them on the brown bear thread.

Anyway, regarding the article which says the tiger will be the winner because it knows where to bite, knowing where to bite might not necessarily make one the winner all the time. A martial eagle also knows where to place its talons compared to a lappet faced vulture yet the former does not mess with the latter. Still there are no records of martial eagles killing lappet faced vultures while there are reports of male Siberian tigers killing female Ussuri brown bears. 

Also thanks for that video on the grizzly bear's shoulder hump:

https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-king-of-the-bears-comparison-between-the-polar-bear-and-the-brown-bear?pid=170418#pid170418

Some male Ussuri brown bears and grizzlies are smaller than average just as there are humans who are taller and shorter than average. Therefore, I am not surprise that some male Ussuri brown bears can weigh 180 kg etc.

Quote:There are two definitions of fear: one can mean respect or the other one can mean trembling in fear.

Tigers are also more territorial than brown bears. Just as male brown bears are most aggressive during mating season, a male tiger will be most aggressive when hungry or defending his territory. Likewise both a tigress with cubs and a female brown bear with cubs will be most aggressive when protecting cubs.

Male amur tigers generally avoid male brown bears yet male brown bears prefer to rob a tigress makes me remember one thing, in martial arts, most generally pick a weaker opponent that is less likely to fight back. Just an example, if someone has a 30% chance of defeating or killing me, I would still fear that person and be more willing to fight someone who has a 10% of defeating or killing me - just from personal experience. Even the one with the lesser chance of winning can still cause damage.

The videos you posted of brown bears pulling bison and tearing the tree apart is impressive. No doubt that brown bears are very powerful and strong animals.

OK, but this is your own personal experience. This doesn't apply to all fighters or most fighters in general. Some fighters (Martial artists) deliberately seek out the biggest and baddest fighters to challenge, why? because they also want to test their skill and physicality. 

You'll have a boxer like Floyd Mayweather, who was renowned for ducking other fighters who posed a serious threat to his precious "undefeated" record, and also cherry-picking certain fighters when it suited him. On the other hand, you have a boxer like Manny Pacquiao, who never ducked a single fight in his life, took on anyone and dominated and defeated elite boxers significantly larger than himself. Some fighters have more self-confidence than others.

Thats why Batalov stated that when tigers hunt bears in summer, some male tigers, depending on their self-confidence will attack almost any animal (bear). So it all depends on the individual.

Note, although studies show that tigers usually hunt adult female brown bears, biologists never stated (or reported) that adult male brown bears are "avoided" or "immune"  to tiger attacks.

Amur tigers and brown bears have co-existed for many thousands of years, there's most likely been many cases of tigers killing adult male brown bears that have gone undocumented and unnoticed by humans. 99% of tiger kills are never found by people, most remains of bears killed and eaten by tigers are found in the tigers excrements. Only indigenous peoples and local hunters may often come across tiger kills in the forest.

Quote:The brown bear might not have the same bite force as the tiger but the former's bite still can inflict a certain amount of damage. Personally being killed by a tiger is quicker and less painful.

Here is an interesting size comparison between Chamlid and the tigress:

Chamlid seems to be about twice the weight of the tigress. Since the bespectacled male tiger is bigger than the female, he would be less than half the size of the the old male brown bear.

According to body dimensions (body-length, shoulder height etc) Chlamid and Ochkarik are similar in size. As male tigers and male brown bears are in general anyway. But weight-wise, Chlamid is twice the weight of Ochkarik.

Batalov estimated Ochkarik to weigh between 160-180 kg. He's not a large male tiger, whereas Chlamid was a giant brown bear, described by Batalov to be "Incredibly huge". So he's most likely twice Ochkarik's weight. He was a very large, fat bear.

Its impressive that although Ochkarik is only a moderate-sized tiger, he still habitually hunts bears. But he's old now - over 13 years old.

Quote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

This male brown bear doesn't look that large. Chlamid looks much bigger.

Also, Warsaw is merely guessing that Chlamid is old. He doesn't know this for a fact. No one knows how old Chlamid was. He could have easily been a 12 year old prime male brown bear. We'll never know though. 

Quote:Here are some accounts of brown bears robbing tigers:

"Adult male brown bears are stronger and force always tigers to give up their prey. Interesting."

tigers are pure predators, as long as the bears' ration concists of meat only by 15%. Bute male bears, being stronger, sometimes can force tigers to give up their pray. Only once in 5 years during monitoring in the reserve Juravliny a case was fixed when tiger named Boris attacked a bear.

[i][b]"These two giants of the Ussuri taiga rarely interact with each other, but nevertheless, sometimes they meet ... They are not direct competitors, therefore they rarely cross the road to each other - the tiger specializes in meat, and the bear has only 15% of animal food in the annual diet. But a bear can go to take away prey from a tiger, especially if the brown is a large male. He is not against eating elk, wild boar, wapiti ... And if, suddenly, the bear has filled up the prey, then the tiger is unlikely to go to take it away, since the bear will fiercely defend it. For 5 years of monitoring, which we have been conducting in the Zhuravliny reserve, we have recorded the only tiger hunt for a bear, the tiger Boris distinguished himself. But nevertheless, the brown bear is not the favorite prey of the tiger, he is very strong, agile and fast! Help the Center-"[/b][/i]

Once again, I've already addressed these accounts. Large male brown bears only (occasionally) usurp kills from female tigers, never adult males. This is what scientific field research consistently shows. You need context to these cases. What the Siberian Tiger Center stated is vague and used the general term: "tigers", but when you see the actual context to these cases, in all cases, it involved tigresses and large male brown bears.

In fact, Goodrich in his recent article gave context, interestingly, he stated that only the largest brown bears (weighing 800+lbs) will sometimes usurp kills from tigers (females). But, when the tigress returns to her kill hungry, and the bears belly is full, even the big male brown bear will yield to the much smaller tigress:


The largest brown bears — and we recorded bears with weights up to 800 lbs in the area — would usurp kills from tigers (females only) and even track them from kill to kill (meeting those bears when searching for tiger kills is another story for another day!).

In one case, tracks in the snow told the story of a tigress and bear reluctantly sharing a red deer the tigress had killed. 


The tracks suggested some bluffing and blustering on the part of both species, but no actual fighting. Rather, it seemed when the tiger had eaten its fill for the day, the bear was able to scare it off, but when the tigress returned hungry and the bears stomach was full, the bear would yield to the cat.

https://panthera.org/blog-post/dance-dea...heast-asia

Remember, "usurping" doesn't always mean directly taking a kill from another predator. A bear can usurp a kill when the tiger is not even present. In most cases, large male bears scavenge the tigress's left-overs. Even according to the Siberian Tiger Project, the most typical case was when the brown bear just scavenges the tiger's left-overs. But so do wild boars, other smaller predators like leopards, lynxes etc ...

Its pointless posting what the Tiger Center wrote because me and you both know thats vague info and those cases involve big male brown bears and tigresses.

I can post plenty of statements saying: "Siberian tigers regularly prey on brown bears"  or "Siberian tigers often prey on adult brown bears" etc... but does that mean tigers regularly hunt full-grown adult male brown bears??  Does that mean tigers often prey on brown bears weighing 300 - 600 kg??  Of course not.

We can't take the general term: "tigers" and "brown bears" and apply it to all individuals, sizes and age classes of the species. The context is what matters.

Quote:Anyway, regarding the article which says the tiger will be the winner because it knows where to bite, knowing where to bite might not necessarily make one the winner all the time. A martial eagle also knows where to place its talons compared to a lappet faced vulture yet the former does not mess with the latter. Still there are no records of martial eagles killing lappet faced vultures while there are reports of male Siberian tigers killing female Ussuri brown bears. 

Also thanks for that video on the grizzly bear's shoulder hump:

No problem. It was an interesting documentary on Grizzly bears. I hope you enjoyed it.

Its not just knowing where and when to bite, (which is very important in a fight between two carnivores) the tiger is a superior killer, it has the greater skills and deadlier killing weaponry, combined with the speed, agility and explosive power to overcome even a larger bear in a fight.

Remember, in a fight between two similar-sized carnivores and even human fighters (Martial Artists & Boxers etc) precision and efficiency is very vital. More vital than most people think. And big cats are masters in precision and efficiency at killing and fighting.

This is one of the reasons why most experts and biologists favour the tiger in a fight against a very large brown bear.

Quote:Some male Ussuri brown bears and grizzlies are smaller than average just as there are humans who are taller and shorter than average. Therefore, I am not surprise that some male Ussuri brown bears can weigh 180 kg etc.

Yes, individual weight variation in bear species is very pronounced. Much more so than any big cat species. A full-grown adult male brown bear can weigh just 165 kg, whereas another individual of the same species may weigh in excess of 400 kg!

Seryodkin weighed an adult male Ussuri brown bear in autumn, that weighed only 165 kg. Reply