There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
08-08-2019, 02:17 PM( This post was last modified: 08-08-2019, 02:26 PM by Rishi )
(08-08-2019, 10:32 AM)Shadow Wrote: Everyone here know worst lion and tiger fanboys and aren´t caring much what they write, because it´s impossible to take seriously those people. It´s also well known thing how those guys edit video clips to show only parts of some interactions. Also ridiculous headlines of videos uploaded by fanboys are well known.
This thread hasn´t been a problem, but it is and will be monitored and if discussion starts to change to bad direction (childish lion-tiger "war"), moderation will happen. These interactions between tigers and lions do happen though, for various reasons. Many times sadly because wrong people happen to have these animals in captivity. Still these videos have been ok as long as no-one tries to bring in that "lion-tiger fanboy war" in some thread here.
If some people want to think, that lion is invincible, it´s their right. Same thing if some people want to think, that tiger invincible. We can´t force them to think otherwise. But we can keep discussions here civilized.
Haha, I actually kinda like you now.
Now related to this thread, Peter's post dug up from the depths of Wildfact. Direct yet indirect comparison of lions and tigers and also talks about the topic at hand.
HUNTERS AND MINIMALISM
Hunting is much underestimated. Professional hunters like cats all walk the edge all the time everywhere. They're true specialists that adapted over time. The result of this never ending process is an animal that, apart from specific equipment, combines strength, speed and agility. They don't come more athletic, I mean.
Most cats hunt small to medium-sized animals, but some target large herbivores. Although big game hunters are a bit different, skeletons and skulls of cats are very similar. In many ways, they're minimalists. Their bones, although dense, are just large enough for the job. They got what is needed and not an ounce more. Weight is important for a solitary hunter. Hunting is about balance and agility.
LIONS STAND OUT
Compared to other cats, lions stand out in a number of ways. One is that they live and hunt in groups. Two is that their skulls are more stretched. To such a degree, that they seem 'overskulled' at times. Three is that their bodies are different from other cats: more robust in head and body, but, relatively, less muscular in the limbs.
When you try to find answers to questions, you need to connect lifestyle, hunting technique and results (adaptations). Social predators need to hunt large animals. Hunting large animals on your own is difficult. For this reason, tigers had to adapt. Big game specialists like adult male tigers nearly always are large and muscular animals. Size pays. Lions are social animals. They cooperate when they bring down a large animals. Size doesn't really pay. Cooperation does.
How cooperate when hunting a large herbivore? The answer is planning an attack and use your combined weight to bring the victim down. Killing as quickly as possible has no priority. It is about bringing the victim down. If it's down it is harmless, meaning you can start eating right away.
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOLITARY AND SOCIAL BIG GAME HUNTERS
Hunting a large animal on your own is different from hunting a large animal in a group. A solitary hunter needs to adapt, whereas social cats do not. For a solitary hunters, specialisation pays.
So what are the results of hunting on your own and hunting in a group?
Groups first. When contact has been established, you use your canines to stay in touch and your body to restrict the victim and tire it. This means that lions need a body and a skull able to deal with severe stress for a considerable amount of time. As you can't lock on to a mountain of meat (referring to large herbivores) with a short snout (no penetration), you need a long one. You also need canines similar to icepicks; sharp-pointed, bended and not too long. You need strong limbs, but it is mostly about using your weight in an effective way. A bit like a bear (overwhelming the victim) would. Or a wolf (hanging on and pulling).
The result is a robust body with an elongated skull. In lionesses, the skulls, although elongated, is similar to the skull of other cats: smooth and functional. Male lions, however, need reinforced skulls in order to be able to deal with violence in the pride violence during exchanges with other coalitions. All in all, a male lion needs to be strong and fit. Apart from robustness, no significant adaptations are needed.
A solitary big cat hunting large animals can't rely on others. He first has to get close, than time his move to perfection. It is about targeting the best spot right away. A slight miscalculation can result in an injury or, worse, a loss of energy. As he is dealing with a heavier animal, he needs to know a few things about using the energy and mass of his opponent. Talking judo here. This is needed to topple him over. Could result in a broken neck, but you need to have a lot of experience to do it just right. Most tigers, for that reason, won't succeed in breaking necks. This means they need to wrestle their victim into a position that will result in a decisive advantage and a quick kill. When the opponent is a large herbivore, 'quick' is a few minutes at best.
The best option is the vertebrae of the neck, but when the opponent is big, the vertebrae-option is out. Strangulation is second best, but it's the only real chance when the animal they targeted is large. This takes a lot of strength, especially in the jaw muscles, the neck, the shoulder and the upper- and fore-arms. In order to get there as soon as possible, you don't need an elongated snout, but a rounded and powerful skull and long and strong canines to hold on and create a bit of collateral damage. Could be a major artery or a crushed windpipe. Holding on is important, but it is about penetration in the end.
All in all, a male tiger needs experience and a lot of power to succeed. The result is a vaulted, dense skull with big guns and wide arches. But not too large. Another result is a muscular body, especially up front. Large muscles are ok, but it shouldn't result in losing agility. When fighting an animal of similar size with more bulk, agility is of utmost importance. The reason is it will allow the tiger to get to an advantage first. For this reason, 450 pounds empty is quite a weight for a solitary hunter.
One would think that a male lion would be able to accomodate more weight, but it is the other way round. At least, if we include regions populated by large tigers. The reason is that hunting large animals on your own will result in a surplus of energy in the long run. As more protein will result in more size, this will allow him to target large animals all the time. Specialisation. It will also allow him to invest more energy in breeding and keeping the territory he conquered safe. Long enough to succeed. In the end, all conditions equal, a healthy ecosystem will result in more large animals. Upgrading is typical for healthy tiger societies.
In tigers, size pays. In lions, it doesn't. A coalition of two 475-pound males, all conditions equal, won't beat a coalition of three 400-pound males. It is about combined weight and teamwork. A clever 475-pound lion can, of course, create a situation favouring the larger animal, but it apaprently doesn't happen often.
MALE LIONS AND TIGERS IN NATURAL CONDITIONS
When a wild male lion meets a wild male tiger of equal size and age, conflict is likely. If both are capable, chances are the confrontation will develop into a situation often seen in India. Male tigers, like male lions, are very territorial animals. They will never accept a stand-off if they can help it. In India and the Russian Far East, male tigers use psychological warfare to create frequent exchanges. Tigers know about intimidation and stress.
When a serious fight erupts, I slightly favour the tiger. There are a number of reasons. At more or less equal size, tigers seem more balanced on their hind legs, a bit faster and more agile. This will result in more initiative. A wild adult male tiger also is a more experienced hunter who knows how to quickly get a decisive advantage in a struggle. More important is their make-up. Wild tigers are tenacious and very territorial animals often engaged in what seems to be psychological warfare. If male lions are experienced warriors, male tigers are experienced warmongers and hitmen, always planning their next move and always looking for a weak spot. When they engage, they seem to explode. Their energy is very different from the energy of other big cats. Lion posters often point to the apparently limited amount of energy of tigers, but culture is very different from content. Male tigers quite often engage in conflicts that can last for many hours. Not seldom, there seems to be no apparent reason. Based on what I saw, I'd say that wild tigers are a bit more aggressive than all other big cats.
In spite of that, the margins are small. A male lion also is very capable and he can take quite a bit of damage. With animals of this size, any mistake can have fatal consequences.
MALE LIONS AND TIGERS IN CAPTIVITY
In captivity, tigers, in constrast to lions, often quickly lose their 'tigerishness'. If a male tiger shares an enclosure with a male lion of similar size and age, chances are the lion, used to dealing with competition every day all day long, will try to boss the tiger around. Tigers are solitary cats not used to daily exchanges about food and all the rest of it. They're not going to invest their energy in managing their daily affairs, I mean. A male lion will, no matter what. Relentless pressure could be the best option for the lion to keep on top, but if he pushes his luck a serious fight can follow.
Although anything can happen, chances are that it's not going to develop into an all-out. Not when there's just the two of them. Conflict in captivity usually is about dominance, not the essentials. When one of the two has made his point, the fire is usually quickly extinguished. If the fight isn't about dominance but a result of a deep-rooted grudge, it can have fatal consequences. This type of conflict, however, is more often seen between members of the same species. Tigers and bears are the exception, so it seems.
Although they may seem eternal enemies, tigers and lions don't seem to do that bad when they share a large enclosure. If the numbers are equal, serious fights seldom erupt. According to the poster who saw the Everland videos (see below), only alpha males engage in fights about dominance. The outcome of these fights is accepted by most other animals. When the lion prevails, stability is the usual outcome. If the tiger wins, turbulance can be the result.
Many do not seem to know that tigers also know how to cooperate. Not in a circus, but in a large enclosure. They don't quite compare to lions for teamwork, but the Korean poster said it's good enough to keep a kind of balance.
Large enclosures inhabited by both lions and tigers could be the future for zoos and other facilities. In order to prevent problems often seen in captive big cats, they are now encouraged to 'work' for their food. It has an effect. The next step is a daily training to keep (mentally) fit. In the end, however, animals want to interact. With other animals, if possible. I would advice against mixing tigers with bears or donkeys, but Everland says lions and tigers could, perhaps, co-exist. To a degree, of course. They would need a supervisor driving around all day every day in order to prevent problems. Warmongers need to be removed. Same for extra-large individuals out for blood.
DEBATES ABOUT FIGHTS AT WILDFACT
We could talk a very long time about the most likely outcome of a fight between a male tiger and a male lion, but chances are it won't produce a satisfying result. Based on what I saw, read and heard, I got to a conclusion, but it only is an opinion and I'm sure it will be contested by many. As all debates about lions and tigers I saw produced a bad climate at best, we decided against it. Anyone ignoring this decision will be banned.
We could do a comparison, but you will never get the real deal. Not happening.
ADVICE
I had one good debate about lions and tigers some years ago. One good debate in a period of about 10 years (...). The poster involved, apart from producing good arguments and sound reasoning, was the only one able to exchange ideas about a hot topic in a respectful way. My advice is to contact Lion Claws at Carnivora. Give him my regards.
I can also recommend reading the lion-tiger thread at that forum. Do it from start to finish. There's one post from a poster able in Korean. He had seen a lot of Everland videos. His post is long, but interesting.
Most forums need versus-debates, but they come at a cost. Carnivora is one of the few that survived. If you really like a versus-debate, visit that forum. When you're done debating, you could contribute to the comparison thread.
One more thing. Although it may seem different, I do not distinguish between both species. To see a wild tiger in a forest, is quite something. To see a wild male lion in the high grasses, is as great. Both cats are the splendid result of a long evolution. The thing is that I was born with a tiger on my bed. For this reason, I'm very interested in tigers. There is a connection, but I also know about teamwork. Humans and lions are very similar in many respects. They could tell us quite a bit about things we do not seem to understand.
Lion and Tiger Fight Interaction in Zoo, Circus or Any Other Captive Places
