Tiger-Lion Coexistence in Eurasia between Middle Pleistocene and Holocene Epochs

[Shadow]

(11-11-2018, 05:14 PM)Sanju Wrote:

(11-11-2018, 02:35 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-10-2018, 06:53 PM)Sanju Wrote: This thread should be about the coexistence between Pleistocene-Wanhesin tigers/ modern Holocene tigers like Amur/Bengal/Indochinese/Caspian tiger and Pleistocene species like ancient that is more primitive lion like Panthera leo/ Panthera vereshchagini or Beringian Cave Lion/Panthera Spelaea/modern Holocene lions like Asiatic lion(Panthera leo persica/leo) and European lion(Panthera leo europea/leo) in Pleistocene and Holocene Asia and South-eastern Europe.


These coexisted for over 50000-30000 of years preferring different habitats in the same eco-region and it is the coexistence reason for the implementation of Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project to Madhya Pradesh’s Kuno and Rajasthan’s Sita, Khumbalgarh. Pack animals-Solitary animals coexist like Tiger-Dhole, Lion-Dhole in the past, Lion-Hyena(spotted/striped), Lion-African wild dog, Brown Bear-Wolf etc.., are some of the examples of recent times and tons of these examples are there since life origin. Animals particularly, Big cats are intelligent, they avoid fighting at all costs which leads to injuries and sometimes death directly or indirectly. They are extremely territorial. For Whom? for their own species. It's an Intra-specific aspect. They do this to ensure the mating rights and territorial dominance of their own species and competition for resources which are limited. Any animal species particularly predators see other predatorial species as threat/prey/competitor for resources. So, the superior one eliminates the inferior when given chance and the inferior one avoids confrontation or conflict/fight with the superior at all costs and controls competition by killing the juveniles as the other side does. when threatened for life or it's off-spring or feeding on killings, the inferior one leaves when there is an escape but when there is no escape fight is inevitable but this scenario is almost impossible in wild. inferior ones that are sick or injured or juveniles on either side to minimize the competition. animals are not killing or fighting machines they know their life value which is important to continue their own species. yes, competitive exclusion or extinction may happen of an inferior species in inter-specific competition in a particular region partially or entirely but that is in the case of solitary-solitary type conflict or competition in the same niche in the ecosystem. Tiger-Lion not even live in the same habitat of the same region even if sometimes overlapped the Lion pride and Tiger don't dare to fight and one of them back off or flee based on the situation. The direct evidence are the millions of examples of coexistence and Lion and Tiger coexisted in small part of Europe and much Asia. This is the truth and not my opinion but wildlife institute of India, NTCA, Wildlife fund trust and tons and tons of wildlife bodies or organizations at the national and international level, nature conservationists, experts, modern biologists and scientists, researchers and books. tiger didn't play literally any I mean any role in lion isolation to Gir it is the depleting mixed dry open deciduous forests, grasslands and killing spree of a psychopath ape of both the keystone species of the same environment that is Lion and Cheetah of grasslands are killed by humans which lead in decreasing their population and last in extinction. Only, Indian Wolf remain as a keystone species for very little Indian grassland ecosystems. It lead to collapsing the grassland ecosystem and the entire grasslands which are their habitats and gave no chance to recover due to their lack of habitats and then again human occupied most of that land. After that, since project Tiger 1973 the vacant gap in the collapsed ecosystem is occupied by Flora and Fauna of the forest ecosystem and the Tiger and Leopard are keystone species which protected and restored the forest ecosystem and spreading forests in place of grasslands and finally by start of this century the grassland ecosystem is the least and horribly decreasing environment in India, placing the grasslands ecosystem Flora and Fauna much extinct and many endangered like our herbivores like black buck, chausingha, chinkara and many though they can survive in both type of ecosystems, the tertiary predator is required for only one ecosystem for the stability. that's why the lion and cheetah reintroduction are proposed to restore all things to right. But, that is not going to happen because of political knots like corruption and money of Narendra Modi and his gang. Even though, even now!!!!!! too India has the capability to save Asiatic Cheetah and Lion from extinction in about ten years but filthy politicians are busy in killing them.

Lion and tiger don't fight for fun unlike in captivity, where the animals are starved and got no way to escape and avoid the fight but to fight until death. It's totally, 100% different in the wild. Both succeeded to live together for thousands of years until 18 or 19th-century human killed and separated them.

Opinions are welcomed in this thread...

Well, it is difficult to see any reason, why these animals wouldn´t be able to live in same areas. balance would be easy to find if enough prey. People create often strange scenarios, but if there is enough prey, these animals should have no problem to co-exist.

Yes, People often think by imagining the fights between male lions fighting or (female-female;male-male;male-female) tigers fighting and applies the same to tiger-lion fight according to the youtube captive fights which are unnatural in which predators have no way to escape and are starved and forced to live together and communicate with other animal species is very limited even though they are of the same genus but still communication is intra-specific leading to stressful and unpleasant life for the captive animals merged together. Big cats are extremely territorial. It does apply to their own species members as territorial nature is intra-specific aspect not to other species like a lion don't bother a tiger around. Animals can find their own species from others and at the same time can differentiate other animals from their own kind. Big cats particularly are intelligent and to them, other animals are just another animal that may be categorised as prey/threat/competitor. Big cat sees another predatorial species as competitor and threat depending on what it is. As they don't like to eat another predator meat unless there is no option when less prey available or starving.  Animals or Big cats particularly don't want to injure/die by themselves in fighting unless there is a need. There is no need to fight between lion and tiger except to reduce competition as territory and mate aspects are not applicable. Tiger is not as fast as lion so it gets caught by a pride will be killed which is not possible because Tiger is not less fast than a tiger and sometimes even faster and Lion pride don't chase because there is no need to be worked, consuming energy which is essential for survival in wild and neither tiger is not a prey item. Tiger doesn't come in Lions habitat as it is more comfortable in denser regions whereas lion in open regions. Predation will occur on both sides when an injured/sick/juvenile individual isolated and can't escape, and outnumber leading to the death of inferior individuals as it is essential in nature to check the competition limited for limited resources. It is same as other inter-specific predator competition like leopard-lion,hyena-lion,dhole-tiger,leopard-tiger whatever you name it since, life birth.  There is no speciality in Lion-Tiger coexistence as they are not wwe fighters who get money to do so as people speculate sometimes things like tiger-hunter, lion-fighter. they do materialise living things as real steel movie robots in hypothetical battles for fun. It is natural survival out there, every animal has to take care of itself, live as long as it can and have a duty to continue and spread its race around the world. Is it difficult to a Lion gang to kill the Nile crocodiles in the river by swimming like a jaguar with a pack? or a croc float to target a lion pride like doing to a buffaloes? They may do it sometimes rarely but neither of them considers each other as prey. If they do either of them might have gone extinct now. just an example to say interactions in between carnivores/predators. They are not humans who have no fear to think about basic needs and can do anything for fun like extincting animals. Every animal struggle for the basic needs except most of us leading a way better life than a wild animal. Disclaimer: this is about survival. don't apply this to problems like getting educated, job, poverty like things in this aspect. every human has his own problems.

Lion and Tiger (diff subspecies of tiger and species of the lion) did coexist from middle Pleistocene to late Holocene of Asia and Europe. I'm not sure that early Panthera leo (which has a subspecies-Sri-Lanka Lion (Panthera leo sinhaleyus)) coexisted for much long with the Bengal Tiger up to Srilanka which is regionally extinct including cheetah but not leopard (as in that time the climate is favourable with grasslands before India stated turning to forests spreading from eastern Asia) which is somewhat different from modern leo lived in India including and periphery which is first wave to occupy the subcontinent before Asiatic lion which is 2nd wave came after the the precedor's extinction but then after Bengal tiger and Asiatic lion coexisted for thousands of year except in southern India as lion didn't go that far as they didn't have that much time as modern civilized human started hunting for fun which before generations didn't do for in such celestial scale.


Big cats coexisted are:

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Like I said the last one the early leo which spread from Africa to Indian subcontinent from which the Srilanka lion differentiated and looked like the almost same might have lived very less time alongside Bengal and the Indochinese tiger after which they did the same with Asiatic Lion. Caspian with the Asiatic and European lion(almost as very very close to Asiatic lion). Wanhesian-spelaea and Beringian and after amur with the same lions.

Asia is the only continent in which 7 big cats (informal) coexisted.
Cheetah:

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Leopard:

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Snow Leopard:

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Clouded Leopard:

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Lynx:

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LION:

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Tiger:

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You can compare the overlapping areas/ranges with tiger and Lion and this is at the same time that is middle Pleistocene to late Holocene up to maybe 19th century or so..

So, India is trying to spread the lion and cheetah (Asiatic) and also Indian wolf keystone species to ver and save losing grasslands ecosystems means saving its fauna and flora.

May I ask a little bit, that what is the main issue, that what you are wanting to discuss here? I think, that captive animals are meaningless to discuss, when issue is animal behavior. Those are all in unnatural environment there. But are you interested to get more information about co-existence of big cats in prehistoric times  or opinions about something? You asked about opinions, but I am not quite sure, that about what? :) Reply