ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[peter]

ALL

a - Proceedings 

This thread is about wild tigers. I don't mind a few discussions every now and then, but the goal is to post good information about tigers. A few days ago, two new members got into a heated discussion. It wasn't about tigers and wild boars, but about something else. I decided to intervene. One of the two was adviced to stay clear of the thread for some weeks. The other was adviced to pay more attention to his sources.

Life is complicated. The second poster used his initial advantage to overplay his hand, whereas the first was postumely proven right. This meant that another intervention was needed. Shir Babr was rehabilitated, whereas Genghis, after his post on tigers and bears, was informed about the flipside of research with one eye only. Although he misinformed the public in the thread 'Tiger Predation', claiming the dead bear in the picture he added had been taken by a tiger, he still got the benefit of the doubt.

Genghis however had a different view on things. His pm, loaded with insult, resulted in a permanent ban. As he no doubt will return in some time, he was adviced to solve a few problems. One of these, something close to what is known as fundamentalism, is typical for quite many posters interested in a specific animal. As it often results in problems, it doesn't seem superfluous to add a few words on fundamentalism.

b - Fundamentalism in posters

Experience says quite many posters are driven by some kind of preference. There's nothing wrong with preference, provided it is used in the right way. Not easy, but many well-known biologists prove it can be done. The difference between biologists and posters in this respect is that posters often struggle in this department. When severe preference is not addressed, it will result in selection and a distorted view on reality. As the results of distortions often result in counters of other posters, heated debates are always close. Sooner or later, the bad climate will result in destruction. This is why most forums are short-lived. 

After years of experience, Sanjay and yours truly decided for a different approach. Although we too got our fair share of problems, the result is not that bad. It can be done, that is. In order to get there, clear rules are needed. They also need to be implemented. Posters ignoring forum rules will be banned, that is.

Genghis isn't the only poster involved in serious preference. We saw many. In my opinion, quite a few of them could develop into good posters. The problem is they often are not to be adviced. There are different ways to describe 'quality'. One could say that quality is related to education, knowledge and ability in the department of social skills, but our experience says that true interest in the natural world and the intention to overcome problems and cooperate could be as important.

The question is why good posters often develop in the department of preference until they reach the level of fundamentalism. Our experience suggests that personality could be important. A famous Dutch football player once said it is difficult to 'convince' good players. They often follow their own ideas and largely ignore those of others, because their ideas produce results. For them. Good players nearly always are outspoken individualists. They can play in a team, but often use the team to show and underline their excellence. In this way, they move up the rankings. This continues until they reach a level where they no longer develop. At the top, you can only develop if you're prepared to ask questions and cooperate. An open mind is of vital importance. More often than not, this is a bridge too far for top players.

What seems to be typical for good football players, could hold in other departments of life. All in all, I'd say there is a strong connection between outspoken views and personality. Those who develop in life often seem guided by outspoken views. Many of them do well, but the majority seems unable to develop after reaching the level they had in mind before they started. At that point, their convictions seem to turn against them. If they're unable to adapt, they will disappear sooner or later. At that stage, fundamentalism will get a chance.

Those swallowed by fundamentalism often are unable or unwilling to interact. They present theories on a specific subject when offered the opportunity and are prepared to act on their convictions, no matter what. There often is no urge to test their ideas. Falsification is not in their dictionary, but they know how to produce a device that will explode. If confronted with different ideas, they 'demand' undisputed evidence. From others. If these are unable or unwilling to produce, they will be pounded. In the end, the aggressor often is faced with splendid isolation.        

c - Example

Genghis also is a member of Carnivora, where he uses a different name. His trade is tigers and bears. The bottom line of his theory is that tigers dominate bears all the time in all respects, no matter what. When confronted with questions, he refers to research. When a debate is not quite concluded, he at times refers to a poster known for his posts on tigers and bears. That poster also is co-owner of the forum he recently joined. Those opposing Genghis, in order to keep the debate going, often have no option but to question the credibility of that particular poster. In this way, he, directly or indirectly, features in quite a few debates on tigers and bears. One could say this poster, depending on the goal of the user, is either used or misused. As he never featured in person, one also could conclude that those using him in one way or another operate below par. 

Although Genghis and the one he uses every now and then seem to agree in most respects in the tiger and bear department, there are a few differences. My aim is to get to an accurate description of reality. Not easy, as reality is as complex as it gets. Based on what I have, I'd say there are no fixed rules of conduct between tigers and bears. Animals also can change their behaviour over time. Furthermore, there is individuality. Circumstances no doubt also are important. A 600-pound male brown bear can lose almost a third of his weight during hibernation. This means he, weightwise, would be vulnarable in early spring. A male tiger interested in bears can be injured in a fight with a large bear and decide for smaller bears in the future. All predators are 'thinking animals' able to change their behaviour.       

Genghis is convinced that an adult male Amur tiger is able to dominate any adult male brown bear. An average adult male brown bear (580 pounds) has about 160 pounds on an average adult male Amur tiger (420 pounds). As both more or less compare in head and body length (measured 'over curves'), this means that adult brown bears are more robust than adult male tigers. It also means they have an advantage in a fight in that they should be able to take more damage.  

When questioned on his opinion, he referred to reliable information. Reports of experienced Russian biologists strongly suggest that tigers kill more bears than the other way round. In some regions and seasons, bears are an important source of food. Adult bears are also hunted. But it also is a fact that tigers, including adults, have been killed by brown bears. The problem is that specific information about gender, age and circumstances is often lacking. Another problem is that there's not much information about interactions between adult males. For this reason, it isn't possible to apply a general conclusion on tigers and bears in the Russian Far East to a specific group (adult males).

Ghengis didn't use this remark to find more information about interactions between adult males of both species, but demanded that the one questioning his opinion delivered undisputed proof. When it wasn't, the climate quickly deteriorated. After a few days only, it resulted in a pm loaded with insult. In this way, the discussion was terminated before it started. 

I don't think it was about the 'undisputed proof' he wanted. The bad climate was a result of his way of posting and his way of interacting. As this is a result of preference, one could conclude that this was the deciding factor. Severe preference, if not addressed, often results in an attitude typical for those involved in some kind of fundamentalism.     

d - To conclude

This post of course doesn't belong in a thread dedicated to wild tigers. The decision to post it anyhow is a result of the large number of preferenced posters. Genghis isn't the first and he won't be the last. As well-intended advice seldom is taken seriously, it seems more effective to add a post on problems often seen in forums. I will propose to move it to the forum rules section. Reply