There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(09-23-2014, 09:57 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: If a tiger is sick, it should be captured and blood should be drawn to make sure there is no outbreak of disease. Nothing to do with radiocollaring, yet again.
"Sorry dude, but you NEED to capture a tiger to measure it, it is LOGIC."
Logic means, you don't capture a tiger to measure it, period!
Its logical that a measurement of a tiger or tigers is useless for conservasation.
"I support my statements by evidence and by every single serious scientists that have actually studied tigers, what more do I need?"
What evidence?
Evidence shows that tigers are caused stress and have died from capture. That is evidence.
Evidence shows that tigers #'s can be monitored by camera traps and camera traps are solely responsible for the most common way of ID, stripe pattern.
Evidence shows that a tigers prey densisty, areas traveled, family members can all be monitored by camera traps.
So once again, I am still waiting for any purpose of radio collaring that helps a tiger.
Conservation is protecting a animal, its prey and its habitat. Not sure how anything else can benefit a tiger other than that.
Look at any animal that is thriving after being on the brink of extinction, it has nothing to do with "radio collars" and everything to do with protection of the animal, its habitat and its food source.
Wolves in yellowstone, storks, Flamingos, Tigers in India, bison, cougar etc.
All animals need one thing, to be left alone, if humans stop poaching them, destroying their habitat and their prey source, everything else will fall into place.
Like it did long before humans where on this planet and like it will long after humans are gone.
Again, your words look like a paranoid park ranger, like the crazy one that banned ANY scientific study in Nagarahole in 2013. I really felt sorry for this, because you were a science lover, but now, it seems that you act like a zealot of those people that created havoc in “Tiger science” in India. For that reason, at 2014, Scientists and Park rangers have more or less good relations, but not the ideal ones, sadly.
About your “logic” issue, sorry but HOW you are going to measure a tiger if you don’t capture it? Besides, measurements are important for conservations, if not, check how this have shown the bad state of the Amur tigers through the beginning of the 20 century. So, your logic is incorrect, like all your statements about collaring.
About the “Evidence” issue. Check that I have the backup of EVERY SINGLE SCIENTIST, but what do you have? Just your “opinions”, nothing more.
1. There is little stress to capture tigers and less than five tigers (4%) of ALL the captured tigers have died, you are just been paranoid here too.
2. Yes, tiger numbers can be monitored by cameras, but what about ALL the other scientific points of investigation? Cameras can’t do that alone.
3. Prey density is NOT monitored by cameras, but by transects studies; learn a little more, ok? Now about areas traveled and family members, it is just too subjective at this point. Evidence of that is that tigers travel great distances and the tigers that go out of the camera areas are simple lost, but if you take the time to read books like “The Face of the tiger”, or “Tiger moon” or even “Tiger: the ultimate guide” (check that I have buy all those books now), you should learn how important was for science the use of radiocollarings.
IF you are still waiting for any purpose of radiocollaring tigers, then you are very ignorant of what the “Tiger science” is. Again, Dr Karanth in his magnificent book “The Way of the Tiger” state how important was the use of scientific methods to understand the life of such a cryptic mammal like the tiger. Of course the camera traps are excellent for conservation purposes (he create them!), but the next step is to study use radiocollaring studies in the areas that have not been studied, like for example Kaziranga in India or Sumatra, where the cameras abound but the information on tigers is incredible scarce, despite the existence of cameras all over the place.
I dare you to show me one scientific study of Sumatran tiger behavior and ecology, despite the HUGE amount of pictures and camera trap studies.
Conservation is important, of course, but when tigers will be stable (let’s hope so, soon), then the studies like that of Chitwan must be developed in all available areas. Your examples of other mammals are better for me. Wolves in Yellowstone were radiocollared, bears of several species are been radiocollared, every single predator is been radiocollared in any part of the world, only you are in a stubborn attitude about this. Check that radiocollaring projects are all over the world. It is funny how the scientific work on animals shows how wrong you are, no offense, but is true.
Finally, I have said many times here that we CAN’T leave animals alone now. It is simple, tiger conservation (that you, apparently defend) MOST take in count that tigers and humans live and will live together and this is impossible to avoid now. Check that tiger sanctuaries like Ranthambore and Bandhavgarh have human pilgrims in the land every year, it is not possible to just left them alone.
Conservation is more complex than you think. Valmik Thapar said that there was NOT a “golden age” where tigers and humans lived in peace, which is just a fantasy. Modern conservation most takes in count several factors like human populations and its needs. It is a deep and complex theme.
I will end this debate now here, I will just leave the "Big Cat News 2" alone, but IF you want to continue, I could create a topic specifically about radiocollaring techniques.
You resort to name calling because you are wrong.
I am absolutely a lover of science, you're correct. Its from years and years of research that I have learned that no "science" protects these cats. The ONLY protection they need is from our selves. Poaching, deforestation, habitat loss, encroachment, all done by HUMAN BEINGS. All controlled by HUMAN BEINGS, the only cause........you guessed it,
HUMAN BEINGS!
Who can stop it............HUMAN BEINGS!
None of this has to do with tigers or any other animal. Nature will go on, animals will live their lives, forrests will regrow as long as WE let it.
Now on to camera traps,
Prey densisty can absolutely be monitored by camera traps, forrests can completely be monitored by traps if we wanted.
Now please enlightlen me on how tiger measurements, help tigers?
We don't know if Amur tigers where any larger or smaller than they are today, hunting measurements show most to be the same size as they are now, some extroidanary claims, but the highest % are equal to or similar to now.
Just like Bengals.
Humans have coexisted with wild animals for thousands of years, its not the lonely villager who is killing the tiger, its the poachers (outsiders), deforestation for big corporate Lumber companies, territory loss for outrageous buildings that will be vacant or torn down and built bigger and bigger. All for corparate pigs who can never have enough.
Even a farmer who poisons a tiger for killing his cattle, why does he have cattle?
Because he is selling it to corporate grocery stores to sell to the masses. Humans take far more than they need, nothing will change until they do. Hence why I say, the only conservation that exists is us leaving nature alone.
Eyes on or hands on? A discussion of human interference
