Who is the "king" of tigers? - Bengal or Amur

[Master Chief]

(04-02-2017, 09:41 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(03-01-2017, 02:46 AM)Master Chief Wrote: I am sorry, but I have more more doubt about what you wrote. This is what I am dubious about your statement.
If you and your friends are true. Then it have already been changed in animal journal like more than 20 years ago.  
 
When I found about the guy who made those chart and comparison data. He graduated from university of Guatemela with agricultural economics and agricultural plant science degrees. I don't even see any of his research papers done by himself. Bascially, he doesn't have any of real life experience of big cats. I guess definitely not the tiger since tiger is only living in Asia.
After I read what you wrote, you don't look like you are actually studying or tracking real tiger in wild and zoo. You're definitely not a keeper in zoo. How do you even know about the pure Bengal or mixed Bengal in captive zoo around the world? I don't think you can prove like that by sending some emails to a few professor and reading some books and articles.

Just a few clarifications:

1. My country is Guatemala, and my university name is "Universidad de San Carlos de Guatemala" (University of San Carlos of Guatemala, in English) and is the largest university in Central America, with more than 300 years of existence.

2. My Degree is in Business Administration, not "agricultural economics" or something like that. However, I DO have knowledge of that field too. I have not made any research paper in the last years, apart from my thesis that is published in the webpage of my University. I am fully dedicated to my job in these days, my field is not "research" but "making business".

3. I have studied tigers and other big cats for more than 10 years, and although I have not worked with big cats directly in the field (for the moment....), I have literally a dozen of books (physical and digital), hundreds of papers and several PERSONAL communications with scientist that have actually worked with big cats in the field. So, my conclusions and the tables that I have made are based in REAL information, corroborated by scientists that actually worked with this great cats.

Finally, if you are trying to prove that the Amur tigers are (or were) the largest cats in the wild, you are going to be disappointment. The few (very few) reliable measurements and weights from Amur tigers in the past shows that they were of the same size than the old-modern Bengal tigers. This full topic shows the information, I advise you to read all the information again.

However, if you don't believe me, here are the scientific conclusions about this "Amur vs Bengal" situation:

1. “Contrary to earlier perceptions, measurements obtained from tigers captured for radiotelemetry studies in the Indian subcontinent (Sunquist 1981; Karanth, unpubl. data) show that they are not smaller than tigers captured in the Russian Far East (Dale Miquelle and John Goodrich, unpubl. data).” K. Ullas Karanth, 2003.
http://www.nfwf.org/AM/Template.cfm?Sect...ENTID=8073
 
2. “Surprisingly, while Siberian or Amur tigers have long been thought to be the largest of the subspecies, measurements of tigers from the Russian Far East show they are currently  no larger than the Bengal tigers of the Indian subcontinent [2] (D. Miquelle and J. Goodrich, unpublished data).” Melvin Sunquist, 2010.
http://books.google.com.gt/books?id=XFIb...22&f=false
 
3. “Despite repeated claims in popular literature that members of the Amur population are the largest of all tigers, our measurements on more than fifty captured individuals suggest that their body size is similar to that of Bengal tigers”. Dale Miquelle, 2004.
http://www.wcsrussia.org/DesktopModules/...attachment
 
4. “Siberian tigers are often considered the largest of the tiger sub-species, although they are in fact about the same size as the Bengal tiger.” WCS-Russia, 2012.
http://www.wcsrussia.org/Wildlife/AmurTi...fault.aspx
 
5. “However, recent data on tigers captured for telemetry studies in Nagarahole (India), Chitwan (Nepal) and in Sikhote-Alin (Russia) show that tigers from these three sites are all about the same size.” K. Ullas Karanth, 2003.
http://books.google.com.gt/books?id=c44r...CCsQ6AEwAA


6. Personal communication with Dr John Goodrich:

*This image is copyright of its original author

     *** Amur tigers been the largest cat is a "myth". Even "credible sources" hence this incorrect information.

This scientist have ACTUALLY worked with tigers in the field and these are they conclusion. If you don't believe in me, believe in them.

This is you? https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Raul_Valvert

Your degree is Business Administration? Hence, you didn't studied any of important biology courses. Now I can understand why did you wrote Panthera tigris virgata instead of Panthera tigris altaica.

1. The most important fact. Taxonomy of the Amur tiger is not virgata. I think you are using virgata because you believe Caspian and Amur are the same subspecies after having read your posts. You cannot change their scientific name as you want. The western populations are gone anyway. They are only surviving in Northeast Asia today. No one will use virgata even if International Code of Zoological Nomenclature accepts as a single subspecies. Every journals and publication papers are using Panthera tigris altaica. You cannot change and using different taxonomy just because you believe those 2 subspecies are the same. No one will going to accept any publication with wrong taxonomy. This is the most important in zoology and systematics

2. I agree with Amur tiger is smaller than Bengal tiger in wild these days. I believe in you. However, prey biomass is extremely low in Amur tiger habitat. We don't know their size if Amur tiger habitat has a high prey biomass just like in India and Nepal. I would want to see size of the Bengal tiger if they are living in low prey biomass area. The Amur is generally larger than the Bengal If you put in the same prey condition like in zoo.

3. If your conclusion is correct, then it should have been changed in journal 10 years ago. You said they aren't the largest cat, but captivity is opposite as you wrote. It might have been different in wild during early 1900. Reply