Amur Tigers

[peter]

SABRE

First of all welcome to the forum. Based on your pm's, I concluded you could develop into a good poster. I still think you can, but your first posts are not very encouraging. As I saw animosity already, I decided for this post. It has a bit of advice. 


1 - The essence of WildFact

WildFact is a forum about the natural world. Although it is about good information, interaction is as important, if not more so. The reason is WildFact is a forum. A forum is a place where people interact about something they're interested in. The condition for interaction is respect. Respect for good information, respect for members and, in particular, respect for moderators.

What is respect on a forum? One is it isn't expressed in firm statements. The reason is we know next to nothing about the natural world. We want to, but reality is very complex. Two is it isn't expressed in taking a stand and defending your position in every possible way. You present arguments and others respond. If you don't like what you read, you can present new arguments or analyse the points made by others. They will then react. In the end, there will be a conclusion. At times, you agree with it, but more often you won't. This is how it works.

It's clear you are informed, but it's also clear you're not the only one. Discussing with well-informed people isn't easy, as they in particular know about pride and everything connected to it. The reason is it took them a long time to learn a few things. Some well-informed posters are willing and able to interact in a respectful way and some are not. If you can't, don't join a forum. 

I've seen more than one poster I consider well-informed or better leave with a grudge. Some of them joined other forums, where they presented firm statements in a thread they started. Very often, they get compliments for every statement they do. The disadvantage is they are not opposed, meaning there won't be a debate, meaning nothing will be tested. After pages of statements and even more compliments, they realize something is wrong. What I'm saying is splendid isolation isn't productive. A good debate is. The condition to debate is rules.

In your first posts, you sidelined and insulted posters I consider as very well-informed. Some of them, for this reason, are moderators. This way of interaction not only is disrespectful; it also is inproductive. Another disadvantage is you can get a public warning, followed by a ban. 

In our exchange, I wrote I was willing to buddy up. This doesn't mean you can use it to act in an inproper way. It also doesn't mean you can ignore forum rules. WildFact is a team, meaning I will back all moderators all the time. 

You dismissed moderators like Apollo and Grizzly as 'fanboys'. You also dismissed a very well-informed poster (Shardul). Me no like. The advice is to admit you made a mistake and clear the air. You can then try again. Ok?


2 - Debates on size

Questions on size are difficult to answer. The reason is we just don't know why some predators developed into 'Monsters of God' and others did not. In general, one could say that most predators were larger and more robust a few thousands years ago. The reason was plenty of large herbivores. We know most of them disappeared, but we don't know why. Could have been climate and could have been something else.

As to the size of Amur tigers. It's true there are many rumours about the large size in the recent past, but it's also true there are very few reliable records. Amur tigers ranged over different regions until quite recently. In some parts, they might have reached a great size, but in others they could have compared to an average Indochinese tiger.

Rumous has it there was a very large reserve just south of Russia some centuries ago. As a result of the protection, animals grew to a large size. When the political situation changed and the system collapsed, tigers spread in all directions. Manchuria, to the north, might have been a safe place for a long time and this could be the reason it produced quite a few very large tigers. Maybe these manchurian tigers were different from tigers in Korea, Russia and northern China, but nobody knows. It's not likely we will ever know, because Manchurian tigers have disappeared.  

Some think they spread their genes before they did. There are many reports about very large captive Siberian tigers half a century ago. Although the Manchurian gene seems to be gone now, some captive Amur tigers still reach a great size. 

Wild Amur tigers seem to be a bit smaller than their captive relatives. A result of the situation in Russia today? I don't know. Manchuria and Russia most probably never were as productive as India or Indochina. Yet Amur tigers always had a big frame. Length is needed to keep warm, long legs are needed to deal with deep snow and impressive weapons are needed to overcome tough prey animals (wild boars) and large competitors (bears). 

Would a very robust tiger have an advantage over a less robust tiger in these conditions? I don't think so, because it would take a lot of energy to drag 500 plus pounds over all them hills all the time. Finding food isn't easy in a region with long winters, deep snow, few large prey animals and tough competitors. Bears, heavier than Amur tigers, are not capable to find enough food to feed themselves in winter. This is the reason they hibernate. Non-hibernating bears ('Schatuns') may, and sometimes do, rob and even kill Amur tigers, but only very few will survive the winter. Energy deficit is a big and very real problem in southeastern Russia.

Tigers do not hibernate. One of the reasons is they are not as heavy as brown bears. This allows them to hunt in winter. It could be that a very large male has an advantage because of his size when he is faced with competition or severe cold, but it definitely is not an advantage during a hunt that can last for days. This could be the reason Amur tigers are not as heavy as wild Indian tigers. 

Tigers in northern India, as large or larger, also face hills (the Himalayas), but they can hunt large animals and don't need to walk in deep snow for many days to find them. This means they can invest their energy in other things, like building and defending a territory attractive for females. The problem is their neighbours reached a similar conclusion. In small reserves with plenty of large prey animals, a race for size can develop. Maybe this is the reason Indian tigers are a bit heavier than a century ago.


3 - Amur tigers compared to other big cats     

It's very likely that Amur tigers have always been large, but not as heavy as many think. Old photographs often show long, tall and athletic animals with big skulls, but animals of 250 kg. and over always have been quite rare. The Sungari River tiger shot in 1943 was exceptional, but we have to remember he had eaten a large bear when he was shot. 

Maybe wild male Amur tigers were about as heavy as captive Amur tigers in the recent past (about 440-460 pounds or a bit more) and meaby they lost a bit of size as a result of changing conditions and low numbers, but I doubt if they averaged over 460 pounds in the previous century. Amur tigers need to be able to overcome long periods dominated by shortages. A male has to keep hit fitness when he loses a lot of weight at the end of winter. In summer, that same male might average well over 450 pounds most of the time. In other words; Amur tigers, more than other big cats, need to be able to deal with extremes without losing ability. All big cats feast or starve, but Amur tigers most probably more so than others.

It could be that an average of 500 pounds or more might be helpful, but if we add hills, deep snow and long marches to find and contact prey animals, chances are it could prove to be too much. 

Captive Amur tigers don't face long periods of starvation, challenging conditions and severe competition. This enables them to get to their potential more often. For this reason, most are a bit longer, taller and heavier than other big cats. When you take a closer look, however, you'll see a big animal, but not a tiger similar in robustness to, say, an average Kazirangha tiger. What you see is a tall, long and big-skulled predator with extra-long canines and big fore-arms. Compared to captive lions, they are not as chesty. One could say lions are a bit more robust for their length, whereas Amur tigers are more athletic.    

Captive Indian tigers are very close in size to captive Amur tigers, but they are not as well developed as their wild relatives. They seem to be closer to lions in that they are a bit more robust than Amur tigers. This is also seen in skulls: Amur tigers often have slightly longer, but less robust skulls. This is what I saw in skulls of captive animals and my take is it wouldn't be much different in wild tigers.


4 - When captive lions and tigers share a large enclosure (not a cage) 

Before WildFact was created, I used to visit a number of forums to read every now and then. One of them was Carnivora. In the thread about lions and tigers, I found a post written by someone who had seen a lot of videos about a park called Everland. As he was able to read Korean, he also had been able to understand comments from keepers.

In Everland, lions and tigers shared a large enclosure. According to the poster mentioned, they competed for space. Although lions dominated most of the time, tigers were able to adapt to a degree. If I remember correctly, the situation wasn't determined by the brotherhood, but by encounters between the most dominant males of both species.

When the male lion won, lions ruled. During lion rule, the situation was more or less stable. When the tiger won, the system collapsed. Tigers, no longer troubled by the brotherhood, used the situation to pick fights all the time. Lions, to a degree, accept leadership, but tigers do not. Not for a long time. When a male tiger picked and lost a fight, he often returned. And again. Not saying it was a war zone all the time, but tigers created unclear situations. Not good for breeding. 

The outcome of encounters often was unpredictable. At times, the lion won, only to lose a few weeks later. Or the other way round. The poster concluded lions and tigers more or less agreed to disagree. Keepers had to keep an eye on things, but extremes were few and far between.

This situation in Everland might have been typical and it might not have been. Mixing both big cats in a large enclosure might work out, but keepers have to be on top of the situation all the time. One reason for concern in Everland was an exceptional young male Amur tiger who had to be separated when he started to realize he had a lot of potential. For the same token, it could have been an exceptional lion. 

At any rate. The post on Everland, although a long one, was interesting. I would recommend reading it. Reply