ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[Apex Titan]

(11-26-2024, 07:54 AM)peter Wrote: UPDATE ON THE DUTCH AMUR TIGERS IN KAZACHSTAN

Those interested in tigers no doubt heard or read about the intention to reintroduce Amur tigers in Kazachstan some time ago. The intention resulted in a decision to give it a try. After a lot of preparations, a series of interesting articles (some of which were discussed in this thread) and a long pause, two captive Amur tigers from a new zoo located in the northwestern top of the Province of Noord-Holland (in the northwestern part of the Netherlands) were flown to Kazachstan not so long ago. 

The new zoo, 'Hoenderdaell', is a nice one. Some of the big cats are from the rescue center I often visited in the period 1990-2010. That facility, not open to the public, changed hands some years ago. The former director called to inform me. Most unfortunately, I never heard from him again.   

Coincidence has it I visited the new zoo about a year ago with my brother, sister and her daughter. On a nice summer day, we took our time to admire quite a few animals not often seen in zoos and the restaurant wasn't too bad as well.

I wrote a post about the brown bears and the Amur tigers I saw. That is to say, I saw the bears from a few yards. The retreat of the Amur tigers, however, was covered with a lot of bushes and trees. I only saw the female walking on a well-used trail. Although the trail was all but invisible, I did, after a few minutes, see she was quite long and tall. One of the keepers I contacted turned out to be a student. He kept track of everything and knew a lot about the big cats and the bears. 

The brown bears seemed as healthy as they get. The male in particular was an impressive animal. Based on the size of the big brown bear I saw in the rescue facility I visited quite some years ago (see above), my guess was he easily exceeded 300 kg (662 pounds). The old bear I saw in the rescue facility many years ago, most probably, was well over that mark. His exact weight was unknown, but the vet who sedated him assumed he was about 300 kg or a bit over. That guesstimate didn't quite cover it. When I was about to enter the room where he had been sedated with my tape and notebook, I was pushed aside by those leaving the room in a hurry. They told me the bear had quickly recovered from the drug and had broken a few ropes (...).  

Anyhow. The male brown bear in 'Hoenderdaell' was one of the largest I saw. Apart from that, he was well built. After watching the mightby bear from a few yards for a couple of minutes, my brother started a discussion about Amur tigers and brown bears: " .. . So you're saying Amur tigers hunt male brown bears in the Russian Far East ... "? Before i was able to answer, a few visitors decided to enter the debate. It was quickly concluded even a decent male Amur tiger trying had to be very lucky to even reach the ambulance. Apex wasn't there, of course, but the student I referred to earlier (see above) seemed to have a somewhat different opinion. He, however, decided for a smile and told me how to contact him when the project he was working on had been finished.              

The Dutch Amur tigers, to return to the title of the post, got a few articles before disappearing into what I expected to be a long silence. But I was wrong. When it was all quiet on the eastern front, my sister sent me a link to an article she found in a local newspaper. It's, of course, in Dutch:  

https://www.nhnieuws.nl/nieuws/342970/ti...kazachstan

I'm not saying it's a very informative article, but it's something and it has a video (00:58) enabling you to see the female ('Boghdana') and, for a few seconds, the male ('Kuma') entering their new home for the first time. As far as i know, the intention is to 'rewild' their cubs. If there will be cubs, of course (both tigers are well past their prime). 

The female is long, tall and in good health. The student told me 'Kuma' is a bit bigger. How do they compare to their wild relatives? Difficult to say, but the videos and photographs I saw suggest today's wild Amur tigers (I'm referring to healthy males with a territory) seem to be a bit more stocky than their captive relatives. 

ABOUT THE SERIES OF APEX 

Apex, in his impressive series about (the outcome of) confrontations between male Amur tigers and male Ussuri brown bears, concluded male tigers stand the best chance. Most of (today's) Russian biologists seem to agree. But opinions differ and so do individuals, conditions and circumstances. 

Kostoglod wrote about a large male brown bear following a tiger for 14 km. The tiger, judging from the heel width of the print (10,5 cm), most probably was a male. He 'escaped', but Apex said there is no reason to assume the tiger felt threatened by the bear. Male brown bears, after all, often follow tigers to scavenge their kills. Maybe the tiger just wanted to get rid of the bear, Apex thought. Could be, but it's a fact Kostoglod (as well as other biologists) found reliable evidence of Amur tigers killed by bears. These incidents occurred in the decades before the STP started. After 1992, as far as I know, not even a tiger cub has been killed by a bear. Kostoglod assumed most of the tigers killed had been struggling with health problems and added they might have developed into troubleshooters. Man-eaters are few and far between in the Russian Far East, but even today not a few tigers enter villages in order to hunt dogs. There are many reliable stories about youngsters (tigers ranging between 2-5 years of age), old tigers and incapacitated adults entering villages in times of need. Most of them are arrested and 'rehabilitated', but most is not all. More tigers can result in more problems in a long and harsh winter and that's still without an outbreak of a disease affecting the animals they hunt. 

ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN CAPTIVE AND WILD AMUR TIGERS

A few years ago, I invested quite a bit of time in reading (scientific and newspaper) articles in order to find (unknown, but reliable) information about the length and weight of captive Amur tigers. Adult males, including a small number of young adults, averaged 220-225 kg (486-497 pounds) and 9.11 (302-303 cm) in total length measured in a straight line ('between pegs'), whereas adult females averaged 135-140 kg (298-310 pounds). The male weight sample is reliable (n=61), but the female sample is a bit wanting (n=15). 

The question is how wild Amur tigers compare to their captive relatives in this respect. The answer is we don't know. The table published in 2005 (referring to tigers captured in the period 1992-2004 in or close to the Sichote-Alin Biosphere Reserve) said (a limited number of young adult and adult) males averaged 176,4 kg (389 pounds), whereas females averaged 117,9 kg (260 pounds). More recent data (refering to the period 2005-2024) suggests the average today could be closer to 420 pounds (190 kg) for males and 265 pounds (120 kg) for females. But a very experienced Russian biologist who assisted in capturing quite a number of wild tigers recently said adult males average 486-535 pounds (220-240 kg) and added the upper limit is over 618 pounds (280 kg). He could be right, as Feng Limin said a male of 597 pounds (270 kg) had been captured in northeastern China some years ago. All in all, the conclusion is adult wild male Amur tigers captured (and weighed) in the period 1992-2024 ranged between 312-597 pounds (141-270 kg). The average is anyone's guess, but what I read suggests an adult male of 442 pounds (200 kg) is considered as large by most Russian biologists. 

All in all, one could conclude captive and wild males more or less compare for range (referring to weight). Captive males, however, are heavier. A bit strange, as it's the other way around in most other tiger subspecies. A result of the harsh conditions in the Russian Far East? The population bottleneck in the 20th century? A lack of reliable data? We don't know. 

ABOUT TIGERS AND BEARS IN THE RUSSIAN FAR EAST

Recent information (referring to the series of Apex) suggests an adult male Amur tiger of average size (353-442 pounds or 160-200 kg) in good condition is able to confront an adult male brown bear. Not a few Russian biologists, including Aramilev, think they've got the best chance in a fight. But in the end, it's all but impossible to get to a conclusion. The main conclusion Apex got to is male tigers, in contrast to popular opinion, stand a very decent chance in a fight with a male brown bear. 

Both 'Ochkarik' and 'Odyr', although average in size, were able to kill an adult male brown bear. In February of this year, male tiger 'Odyr' confronted a hibernating male brown bear. In the lines notes of the video, Yuri Kya, heavily critized because of his comments about the fight between the male brown bear killed by tiger 'odyr' in November 2022, said the size of the hibernating bear could have made a difference. Meaning it was the reason the bear wasn't attacked by 'Odyr'. Could be, but the bear left to hibernate elsewhere and it's likely this was the intention of 'Odyr'. Judging from what we know, one could conclude tiger 'Odyr' isn't too keen on male brown bears in his territory. I don't doubt there are more examples of male tigers pushing male bears out of their territory, but that doesn't mean a fight is a one-sided affair. It is a fact male tigers have ben wounded in a fight with a brown bear (referring to a table discussed in this post some years ago) and that's still without the male tigers killed in 1913 and 1972. The problem is there's no information about both incidents.  

APEX      

Although we agree in most respects regarding (the outcome of encounters between) male Amur tigers and male Ussuri brown bears, we disagree in that I doubt black and white are the only colours. I agree with your conclusion about the (most likely) outcome of an encounter between a bear-experienced territorial male tiger and an adult male Ussuri brown bear, but there are many tigers and bears and in the end it always is about individuality and motivation. 

Tigers, in contrast to bears, learned about confrontations and how to quickly overcome a struggling animal at a very young age. They know how to use their teeth and claws. In this department, they are unmatched. There is, on the other hand, some evidence size could be more important than you assume. There is enough evidence to conclude an experienced tiger is able to kill a larger bear, but it's likely there is a limit. After witnessing the interaction between the big old male brown bear and the tigers in the facilit I often visited two decades ago, I changed my opinion to a degree, but it's likely a male tiger would need a lot of time to overcome a bear exceeding 800 pounds. I'm not saying a tiger would exhaust himself (there are many reliable reports about tigers involved in very lengthy fights from India), but it's likely a bear is able to take a lot more damage in a long struggle. It's also likely the bear will get more opportunities to injure his opponent. Even a relatively minor injury could have a serious effect. Example.  

Here's tiger 'Snarl' (Kanha, January 1977) after a fight with tiger 'Arjuna':  

*This image is copyright of its original author

 

And this is his opponent 'Arjuna':

*This image is copyright of its original author

   
Tiger 'Arjuna', past his prime when he fought 'Snarl', was able to keep his sambar, but he was injured. The flap of skin hanging in front of one of his eyes impaired his vision and his ability to hunt. Not long after this photograph was taken, they found him dead. His opponent, by the way, later met his match in an old warrior. The photographs and the story are from 'Through the tiger's eyes' (Stanley Breeden & Belinda Wright, 1996).  

PROPOSAL 
       
For most of us, it's difficult to understand why an experienced big cat like a tiger is able to overcome an opponent like a large brown bear. For this reason, I don't think it would be superfluous to extent a bit on the difference between fighters and non-fighters (referring to humans) and the impact of size, speed and aggression in what seems to be a more or less even and fair fight. I'm not suggesting to post videos of confrontations between experienced (human) critters (doesn't fit the thread), but I don't doubt there's a bit more about the issues discussed in this thread in books written by those who know a bit more about the qualities of apex predators. 

One could start with the difference between a wild adult big cat and his captive relative. They are immense. Tigers are apex predators. Every adult male needs years to get there and not a few perish while trying. This is not the case in captive tigers: all of them will reach adulthood. Most people do not seem to understand what it takes to reach adulthood and a territory. John Vaillant could be a good idea to start, but there are more writers who saw things most of us will never see. See what you can do. 

And thanks for the series on tigers and bears. Good sources, reliable links, interesting and informative.

It's very strange that in the last 35 years, Russian biologists, rangers, or hunters have never found a single reliable case of even a little tiger cub killed by a bear. 1990 - 2024 is a long time (2025 is only a month away now), and Amur tigers are still actively hunting and killing bears to this day. There are countless cases from the last century, as well as countless modern day accounts from the 21st century of tigers attacking and killing brown bears, most of which were adult brown bears killed, including some large males and sows. 

Now, in spite of this, why are there zero modern cases (1990 - 2024) of brown bears killing or seriously injuring any tiger? Have brown bears all of a sudden become useless against tigers? Why did a large male brown bear of impressive size, fail to seriously injure a smaller tiger (Odyr) in a prolonged, fierce battle to the death? How come Odyr received only a minor injury to his front paw and was totally fine?

How come the very large female brown bears killed by male tigers in prolonged fights (Siberian Tiger Project), also failed to seriously injure the tigers? How come only one of the tigers received only a minor wound and was completely fine afterwards, whereas the tiger Dima was also completely fine, and had no injuries? Do large brown bears lack the weaponry to seriously injure tigers in a fight in most cases?

Way back in the 20th century, Kostoglod found some cases of tigers injured and killed by brown bears, but he specifically noted that these tigers were most likely unhealthy, weakened, and already injured tigers. Which suggests that Kostoglod likely thought that its very unlikely that a brown bear can kill a healthy tiger in a fight. Otherwise why would he say that?

Although brown bears are large and powerful animals in their own right, based on the facts above, I do think that brown bears are highly overrated by most people. If they really were that formidable as many suggest, then there should be several modern cases of brown bears killing at least some tiger cubs, but there's nothing in the last 3+ decades. What other conclusion can I come to? Seasoned Russian biologists with over 50 years of field experience like Batalov, Dunishenko, and Yudin, have found nothing. Seasoned forest rangers like Yuri Kya and his team also found nothing. On the contrary, all have reported cases of large bears killed and eaten by tigers.

Yes, you and I agree in most respects when it comes to tigers and bears. I agree that nothing in nature is black and white, and reality is far more complex. Individuality and motivation also plays a significant role too, no doubt. You're making good points. However, we also cannot deny the fact that most Russian biologists, naturalists, rangers, and hunters strongly favor an average male tiger in a fight against even a large male brown bear. This fact speaks volumes because these are the opinions and views of very experienced professionals and experts who live and work with tigers and bears in the Russian Far East for their entire lives. They've collected first-hand data on tiger-brown bear interactions and speak (and work) with locals and native peoples. 

We have to look at the general consensus of experienced Russian experts to come to a conclusion. Consistency is key. And the general consensus is overwhelmingly in favor of the tiger. If we add all the recent information/accounts of male tiger-adult male brown bear interactions, then this adds even more credence to the conclusions of most Russian biologists, naturalists, rangers, and hunters.

I have no doubt that an adult male Ussuri brown bear is a formidable opponent for a tiger, but there's also no doubt that, in spite of the male brown bear's massive size and immense strength, a male tiger is the superior and more formidable beast and is able to kill even a significantly larger male brown bear twice his own weight more often than not, and most Russian biologists, zoologists, rangers, and hunters agree.

If a fight between a male tiger and male Ussuri brown bear was really a "close all" like you assume, then opinions and views of Russian biologists would be split 50/50. Or at least we would find numerous Russian biologists who favor the adult male brown bear in a fight, but we don't, as far as I know, there's only Krechmar and Sysoev. But they never provided any shred of evidence to support their (guesswork) opinions, and I already debunked their opinions in my previous posts. Biologists like Kucherenko have actually (personally) found hard evidence, on multiple occasions, of large male brown bears killed and eaten by tigers, but not a single case, in over 50 years of field experience in the taiga, of the opposite happening.

According to Kucherenko's observations and experiences, even a large male brown bear is not capable of defeating an adult male tiger in a fight. His view is consistent with Aramilev's view.

Even the native tribes (Udeghe, Nanai, Tungus) who have lived alongside tigers and brown bears for many thousands of years, all widely regard the Amur tiger to be the superior and more formidable beast, and the undisputed "Lord of the taiga" who reigns supreme over all animals of the forest. This fact is also very telling. Vaillant also makes note of this in his book.

So according to vast majority of Russian experts and all natives, a fight between a male tiger and male brown bear is not a "close call", but the tiger is a clear favorite. But I agree with you, that in some cases, an adult male brown bear can also win. Bears are no joke. So yes, its not totally one-sided. I just think, based on the clear evidence, accounts, and expert testimonies, that the tiger will certainly be the usual winner.

As I proved in one of my previous posts with plenty of pictures and videos, many people highly exaggerate the size of brown bears in comparison to big cats. In reality, adult male Amur tigers and adult male Ussuri brown bears are very similar sized predators, and in some cases, the tiger is even larger. When both are huge males, they're still similar in size. So a fight between an adult male tiger and adult male brown bear is a clash between a tiger and bear of similar size. The tiger is the heavy favorite. Has a bear ever been reported to have killed a similar sized tiger in a fight, ever? No, there's not a single documented case in all of history. Are there many cases of tigers killing similar sized bears in fights? Yes, plenty of cases throughout history. What does this clearly suggest?

Judging by history, evidence, and accounts, the only way a male brown bear stands a chance in a serious fight against a tiger, is if you get a average male Amur tiger (190 - 200 kg) vs a very large male brown bear weighing 300 - 600 kg. Even then, according to most Russian experts, the tiger is still the favorite.

Bears don't do well against similar sized big cats in serious fights to the death, they always get killed and eaten. A large bear, at best, can put up a tough fight and injure a similar sized tiger in a serious fight, but cannot kill the tiger. The tiger is just too well armed, faster, more agile, and far more skilled at killing. The bear needs a significant size and weight advantage to stand a chance, otherwise it will always get killed and eaten. A tiger has too many advantages over a brown bear, advantages that I will discuss in my next post.

Which brings me to your proposal. Based on everything discussed in mine and your posts, my next post will be about the huge difference between specialized big game hunters (apex predators like tigers) and omnivores (bears). I will also post some impressive tiger predation feats to further prove my points, and explain the difference between the nature, mindset, and capabilities of tigers and bears, as well as the difference between wild and captive tigers.

But first, a prelude to the main post is coming up .... Reply