ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[Apex Titan]

@peter 

I agree, I'm done responding to BroBear's posts. However, here are my last remarks about BroBear, which highlights the purpose of my last posts in this thread.

The sole purpose of my last posts was not to "convince" BroBear, but the aim solely was to expose and debunk the outright blatant lies and misinformation he, and some of his members, are deliberately spreading, especially about Yuri Kya's account. My aim was to also debunk that phoney and completely isolated, alleged "email", which I also easily did.

I was just exposing the fraudsters, so the general public can see the truth and real facts about this account. In order for people to learn, the pathological liars and fraudsters who spread pure misinformation and lies must be exposed. Their blatant double standards, inconsistencies and hypocrisy must also be exposed.

I genuinely believe that BroBear know's for a fact that Odyr indeed hunted, fought, and killed a large, full-grown male brown bear of impressive-size, but he simply cannot admit it. Why? because once he admits it, the debate has ended and his whole agenda and false opinion gets completely destroyed. Hence why, instead of accepting the truth and reality, he'd rather ridicule and dismiss highly respected, experienced, and trained professionals and seasoned experts, and deliberately ignore other crucial evidences which clearly debunk and expose his lies, misinformation, wild opinions and guesswork. Hence why he'd also rather invent some imaginary person who was at the "kill-site", instead of accepting reality and facts.

BroBear knows that it wasn't a "3 year old bear" killed by Odyr, he knows that when Yuri Kya saw the bear carcass up-close, he specifically said "impressive bear", he knows Yuri Kya saw clear signs and traces of a prolonged fight all over the forest clearing, and he know's Yuri Kya confirmed first-hand (via email) the 18 cm paw width of the killed male brown bear. He also knows the account was confirmed by TWO scientific organizations (Amur Tiger Center & 'Reserved Amur Region'). And he also knows this case was reported on live TV news, in which the reporter specified that it was a "large brown bear" with a palm callus width of 18 cm, killed by the tiger. But he will never admit it, period. 

I seriously believe (I'm not joking) that even if a 8K UHD video was filmed (by a biologist) up-close of a tiger killing a full-grown adult male brown bear, instead of accepting it, BroBear would most likely say its a fake A.I. created footage or CGI. He, and his side-kick, still wouldn't accept even hard video evidence of it happening. That's how bad it is with them. So I already knew right from the start, that there's no "convincing" BroBear, or some of his members. Its about exposing lies and showing the truth.

And lastly, Peter, remember, some years ago on this very forum, BroBear openly admitted and stated: "Big mature male brown bears are probably killed occasionally by tigers" (Page 18, post #256). 

BroBear also stated: "I do believe that tigers can and have killed mature healthy full-grown grizzly boars within the last one-million years that they shared the environment of the Russian wilderness. Probably hundreds of such events." (page 124, post #1,860).

BroBear also stated: "I am sure that historically there have been bloody fights within the wilderness of Russia where full-grown grizzlies have been killed by tigers. A tiger is a predator, perhaps the greatest land-based predator living. He is a professional assassin  - a killer. He has the tools of the trade and knows how to use them." (page 124, post #1,857).

These statements speak for themselves. BroBear knows for a fact, that a tiger is more than capable of killing a fully-grown, healthy adult male brown bear in a head-on fight. He knows that Odyr killed a large male brown bear. And he knows that there are plenty of cases of tigers killing adult male brown bears (especially after the abundance of evidence & information I posted) but he'll never admit it, for obvious reasons.

Anyways, like I said, those were my last comments about BroBear and his compulsive lies. Moving on ....

As for the videos you posted:

Nice videos, I've already seen them all. But Peter, this video you posted also shows comparisons between tigresses and adult male brown bears, not only male tigers.

Tigress & adult male brown bear (0:21), tigress & male brown bear (0:57), tigress 'Rashel' & the huge male brown bear 'Chlamyda' (1:08), brown bear & a young looking tiger (1:14):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBSaLJUUxeo

Quote:About a year ago, I visited a new facility not too far from Amsterdam. It had three brown bears, and adult male and two adult females. I thought the male was from Russia, but I'm not sure. I'm sure about his size though (I made a few notes). He was tall (close to 4 feet at the shoulders while standing), big (judging from the sedated male I saw from a few feet in another facility at least 350 kg or 773 pounds) and in excellent shape. He was a giant. The females were not small either. The facility also had a number of Amur tigers. We only saw one, an adult female. She was unusually tall and long and in very good shape. Staff members told me the male was one of the largest they had seen, but he was sleeping. These two, by the way, were sent to a facility in Kazakhstan a week ago. Kazakhstan, as you may know, intents to reintroduce tigers and, for this reason, created a new reserve. The two tigers from the facility I visited (see above) are part of the project. Captive Amur tigers in good condition will be used for the project as well. The intention is to release their offspring into the new reserve. 

While watching both (referring to the bears and the tigress), I heard the conversations around me. Not one of those watching thought the tiger (tigress in this case) wouldn't stand a chance against the giant male bear. When discussing tigers and bears with friends, the conclusion was similar. Based on what I heard, I'd say at least 90% of the public favours an adult male brown bear over any adult male Amur tiger. The reason is captive brown bears often are large and big.  

Not surprising at all, because those peoples opinions were based on watching a 'giant' male brown bear (likely weighing 400+kg) and a tigress.

They never got to see the large male tiger, which is a totally different story. So this comparison is clearly unfair, and their (laymen) opinions mean nothing.

Quote:Like those who joined the Domain, Apex, most people just can't imagine a tiger would be able to kill an adult male brown bear in an open fight. You can post what you want, but my guess is their opinion will never change. The main reason is size and robustness. 

The facility I visited in the late nineties and the first decade of this century wasn't open for the public. Those following workshops were professionals (army, police and security), athletes (judo, weight lifting, body building and martial arts) and trainers. Compared to the general public, they had a different opinion. The reason was they knew about (the effects of) specialisation (and training). The male brown bear in that facility was as large as the one we saw in the new facility, whereas the male lions and tigers ranged between 170-210 kg.  

Exactly. Many forum members (most of which are complete laymen, and even high school kids) "can't imagine" a tiger killing a larger adult male brown bear in a fight. However, the professionals (athletes, martial artists, army soldiers, police, weight-lifters, etc) you talked to had a different opinion, and favored the tiger? I assume.

Because they know, the tiger possesses the far more vital advantages and attributes (speed, agility, power, predatory skill, aggression, weaponry, precision, reflexes etc) that is much more important in a serious fight and can easily nullify the large adult male brown bear's weight advantage.

Anyone who knows about training and fighting, and what it takes to win, knows that size and weight is not everything. Skills, speed, power, agility, killer instinct, precision and efficiency, is far more important, particularly in a street fight with no rules. 

This is one of the reasons why most Russian biologists, zoologists, rangers, naturalists, and hunters heavily favor the tiger over even a huge male Ussuri brown bear (400-600 kg), which is a significantly slower, less agile, less skilled, and more clumsier animal with inferior weaponry.

Quote:In most videos, the male brown bears are heavier and (a bit) taller. They also have slightly longer heads and skulls. Male Amur tigers, on the other hand, seem a bit longer (referring to head and body length measured in a straight line). Very large Ussuri brown bears can be 2-3 times the weight of an average male Amur tiger. Russian biologists know, but think they don't stand much of a chance in a fight with an adult male Amur tiger. In a video that was posted in this thread, Sergej Aramilev explaines why they got to that conclusion.
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Its very telling that majority of people who favor the adult male brown bear in a fight, are random, completely unqualified forum posters (many of which are clueless, very biased, and base their opinions on preference or patriotism) or the general public (laymen), whereas the majority of people who favor the male tiger in a fight, are highly reputable, experienced professionals and experts such as Russian biologists, zoologists, scientists, naturalists, rangers, and even locals, natives, and hunters, the people who actually live and work with tigers and bears for their entire lives. This is very telling.

Most people who favor the male Ussuri brown bear = Forum posters and laymen.

Most people who favor the male Amur tiger = Biologists, zoologists, scientists, rangers, naturalists, natives, and experienced hunters.

That says it all. What does this show?

Back in 2020 (before his 2021 video interview), 'Russia Beyond' published an article about who would win in a fight between a tiger and grizzly bear. Aramilev highlights the fact that tigers are highly skilled killers, whereas bears are vegetarians, scavengers, and very inefficient killers. It is also noted that naturalists favor the tiger in a fight between two heavyweight rivals.

Biologist Sergey Aramilev thinks a fight between a very large male brown bear vs a tigress or small male, is practically an equal duel. Russian zoologist Timofey Bazhenov said, in a fight between a tiger and brown bear, "as a rule" the tiger wins.

*This image is copyright of its original author

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