ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[Apex Titan]

(10-03-2024, 06:25 AM)peter Wrote: APEX

a - About the video I posted 

Before responding to your post, I decided for some background information on the video in my last post. It's a bit of a detour, but the story, I think, is interesting. 

You may remember my post about the way of interacting of the administrator of 'Domain of the bears' and some members. I said I would contact a few people who know a few things about forums, problems and solutions. Most of those I contacted informed me about (the reach and effect of) legal measures. Two actually read quite a few posts. They told me they got interested along the way and invested quite a bit of time. Although they know next to nothing about (interactions between) tigers and bears in the Russian Far East, they do know a few things about information, interaction and problems that often erupt during exchanges. 

Both, to be complete, do not know each other. It was quite remarkable they got to similar conclusions about the (causes of the) problems I referred to. Apart from that, they quickly noticed the main differences between posters interested in good information and others. They concluded you and 'fantasticstruggles788' in particular are the main contributors in the department of information. The difference between you and 788, according to them, is you largely focus on recent information, whereas 788 posts about books written by Russian hunter-biologists, zoologists and naturalists published, say, 50-100 years ago. Another difference is 788 never adds comments and conclusions, whereas you do.  

Apart from reading, those I contacted saw quite a number of videos. Both know a few things about videos and manipulation. One of them sent me a few links to videos that, in his opinion, had been manipulated. His advice was to add the link of the most recent video he found in a new post and to write a comment. He asked me to write a post today. This afternoon, we met. He explained why he asked me to write a post (with the link to the video) immediately and added he was prepared to go for a bet regarding your response.  

We talked about the forum for some time. He was surprised at the number of views and added Wildfact has commercial value. When discussing a number of future scenarios, he suddenly smiled. He said he thought you would be the only one to respond and go against me within 24 hours after I posted and he was right. What I'm saying is your posts speak for themselves. So much so, a visitor was able to predict your response.    

Did I immediately notice the video was fake? Negative. I did, however, see a vital part (referring to the moment the tiger and the bear met) was missing. Apart from that, I noticed the bear didn't seem to respond to the proximity of the tiger. Strange, as no Himalayan black bear in his right state of mind, no matter it's age and size, would enable an adult male Amur tiger to get within striking distance. Every Himalayan black bear knows he's on the menu of just about every Amur tiger. It's also very unlikely a wild male Amur tiger would waste a golden opportunity and decide for private matters, completely ignoring the bear. Meaning 'Pallas', who posted the video on YouTube, is involved in manipulation without a shadow of doubt. 

His conclusion (referring to the man I contacted) is you're one of the few interested in good information. It's also clear you're prepared to oppose everyone involved in selling crap, meaning you're independent. This means those interested in bears are wrong in all respects and that could have been the intention. A big compliment, I think.  

b - About your last posts

I could take my time to discuss the information you posted, but it speaks for itself in all respects. You answered most questions. Excellent work. Does this mean you covered all of it? The answer is not quite. Explanation. 

There are two sources about tigers and bears in the Russian Far East. The first consists entirely of books written by Russian hunter-biologists, zoologists and naturalists. These books were difficult to find and to read (referring to the language). This is the reason the book of V. Mazak ('Der Tiger', 1983) was so popular for a long time. In the early eighties of the last century, I visited East-Berlin. I found and bought 'Säugetiere der Sowjet-Union' (referring to the German translation published in 1980). In 1992, the Siberian Tiger Project started. I consider all books, articles and peer-reviewed documents published in the period 1992-2024 as the second source of information. 

It didn't take me long to conclude there are significant differences between books published half a century ago and those published in the last decades. In order to find out why, I tried to find English translations of books written by Russian biologists in the period 1900-1992. Dr. P. van bree assisted, but it wasn't easy. Just before the turn of the century, I joined AVA. Some of the posters interested in bears posted paragraphs and tables from the books I was after, but they used the information to underline a point made meaning it was difficult to get to a conclusion. In the end, I lost my interest. The never ending animosity and the hack contributed to the decision to quit, but the main reason was a lack of good information and the manipulative attitude of posters interested in bears.

c - About a new thread created by 'fantasticstruggle788' (a new member of 'Domain of the bears')  

A few weeks ago, in the heart of bear country ('Domain of the bears'), I found (parts of the) books I was after. The new member of Brobears forum, 'fantasticstruggle788', posted English translations of paragraphs and chapters of books written by Russian biologists published before 1992 (including Kostoglod). The new member of 'Domain of the bears' is able in Russian. As he selected paragraphs and chapters in which relations between Amur tigers and bears are described in detail, those interested now have the opportunity to read them. 

I read some of his contributions and got to the same conclusion as a few decades ago. I mean those who published, say, half a century ago seem to contradict those who published in the last decades. Could it be reality is a mixed bag, did tigers and bears interact in a different way half a century ago or are we missing something? 

My advice is to visit the thread he started ('The Ussuri brown bear 1950-2000'). When you meet '788', tell him his contributions are much appreciated. Let us know what you think.

I've already seen that thread "The Ussuri brown bear 1950-2000" and read the information published by biologist Kostoglod on Amur tiger-Brown bear relations.

Kostoglod published information about serious fights between Amur tigers and brown bears, and as usual, like most Russian experts, after analyzing the data, Kostoglod concluded and reported that the tiger is more often the winner in a fight. This part was completely ignored by the bear posters on that forum.

Kostoglod stated:

"The outcome of the struggle is more often in favor of the tiger, but there are also quite a few cases where the (brown) bear managed to kill the opponent."

What kind of tigers perished in fights with brown bears?

Kostoglod stated:

"Since in such encounters it is more likely that weakened individuals, including injured ones, will perish, it is possible that the activity of the brown bear helps eliminate potential man-eaters from the tiger population."

This was also noted by the Siberian Tiger Project biologists in their scientific research papers. 

Both these statements from Kostoglod were ignored by bear posters. According to Kostoglod, its most likely that brown bears killed already weakened, sick, or injured tigers in those fights, not healthy tigers. Even from Kostoglod's data and testimony, the tiger is more often the winner, which is consistent with most Russian biologists, zoologists, naturalists, rangers and hunters testimonies. Kostoglod's fight statistics and data is in favor of the tiger.

And Peter, I have to do this, because BroBear doesn't cease to spread blatant lies and misinformation about Yuri Kya's account. And he's also calling you out on this.

BroBear

You said: "My question to the "top cat" at WF is, why do you not investigate further the story of Odyr and bears (plural)? Such as the man who identified the 3-year old bear (carcass) and the man on-site who mentioned that the footprints don't match the size of the dead bear?"

Now read this slowly and very carefully Brobear, and let it sink in deep....

There was NO MAN "on-site" who mentioned that the footprints "don't match" the size of the dead bear! And there was NO MAN who "identified" the so-called "3-year old bear" carcass! What the hell are you talking about??  This is a blatant lie and outright misinformation. Where's the evidence? Statements? News reports?

I already debunked that clearly fake (completely isolated) email, allegedly from "Mikhail Milezhik" that claims the dead brown bear was a "3 year old" named "Misha". Absolute nonsense! There's NOT A SINGLE other source, shred of evidence, report, nothing, that corroborates with that alleged, (fake) email which was fabricated by bear fans.

BroBear, how come not a single other source (and there are plenty) mentions that the killed brown bear was a "3 year old" bear named "Misha"?? If that was true, it would have certainly been reported in at least several different sources. But there's absolutely NONE, zero! ... there's only that completely isolated, dubious, alleged "email". How come?

And stop blatantly lying about this imaginary man "on-site" who "mentioned" that the foot-prints "don't match" the size of the dead bear. That's a bold-faced lie. Didn't you see the video??

The only people at the kill-site were Yuri Kya and his team! Yuri Kya, who's the expert authority, and his team definitively concluded based on all the hard, undeniable evidence at the kill-site which they thoroughly examined, that the male tiger 'Odyr' indeed slaughtered a large, "impressive-sized" adult male brown bear in a fierce, prolonged fight. Yuri Kya saw signs and clear traces of a violent struggle all over the forest clearing! He was even able to determine where the fight began! (next to the forest index sign).

BroBear, why do you deliberately ignore all these facts? Why do you constantly lie and put your own made-up twist on accounts? Why are you inventing imaginary people who were at the kill-site?? Its pathetic.

Again, watch the video very carefully, Yuri Kya specifically mentions that they "trampled the glade during the fight" and when he see's the killed brown bear carcass up-close, he clearly says "impressive bear". 

Now read, BroBear... read very carefully and understand:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

He see's the killed brown bear, and says: "Impressive bear". Where is the imaginary "3 year old bear" carcass?? Or is Yuri Kya and his team blind or hallucinated?? 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Why was the killed adult male brown bear carcass covered in snow?

Well, BroBear, hear straight from the horse's mouth yourself:

Dear Yuri Kya:

"I found news in your reserve. The tiger killed the brown bear. The bear has a front paw callus width of 18 cm. Tell me, is this measured correctly? If correct, this is an adult male brown bear. This is the answer the WCS animal expert would like to know. Is this an adult male brown bear?"

Yuri Kya:

"Yes, indeed, there was such a case when our tiger caught a male brown bear. I confirm the width of the front heel. Unfortunately, it was not possible to accurately "trace" (track) the entire chain of events of the tiger hunt, at that time there was a heavy snowfall. But on the spot there was a lot of broken bushes and withered grass trampled down. The predator was scared away from the prey by all-terrain caterpillar vehicles, later it returned to the remains of the bear more than once. Later, I traced his trail, but the tiger received minor damage to its paw."

"Earlier, I repeatedly found the claws of bears in the feces of tigers, as well as traces of their successful hunts, some of which they got from dens in winter."

Yuri Kya's email:

https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/6040...b670_t.jpg

There you go!!  After Odyr killed the large male brown bear, there was a snowfall that happened! Not my words, but Yuri Kya's words! Now you know why the bear carcass was covered in snow when they got there.

2nd email from Mikhail Milezhik

Mikhail Milizhek already verified Yuri Kya's account and confirmed that the tiger Odyr indeed killed an adult brown bear with a palm callus width of 18 cm:

Q: I saw in your reserve the news that the northeast tiger killed an adult brown bear, which said that he had a palm width of 18 centimeters. Is it true? Thank you, I wish you all the best!

Mikhail Milezhik：Hello, yes the information is valid.

Mikhail Milezhik's email:

https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/6040...f78c_t.jpg

Brobear, why do you deliberately ignore these 2 emails?? How come neither Yuri Kya or Mikhail Milezhik mentioned that it was a "3 year old" bear killed by Odyr?? How come they both confirmed that the tiger Odyr killed an adult male brown bear with a palm callus width of 18 cm?

And the video (above) speaks for itself and clearly exposes the nonsense you constantly spew about this case, period.

Confirmation of this account:

Brobear, as I mentioned in my previous post which you (obviously) completely ignored, the account of the male tiger Odyr hunting and killing the large adult male brown bear was verified by the Amur Tiger Center (scientific organization), 'Reserved Amur Region' (scientific organization), the Governor of the Khabarovsk region, TV news reporter, and both Mikhail Milezhik and Yuri Kya confirmed this account via 2 emails. All the original reports, plus the additional 15+ reports, all 100% corroborate Yuri Kya's statements and conclusions. So yes, this is an indisputable, undeniable and confirmed account of a large, full-grown adult male brown bear falling prey to a smaller tiger. Whether you like it or not.

There was plenty, I repeat....plenty of hard evidence at the kill-site, which made Yuri Kya and his team of seasoned experts, conclusively determine that the male tiger 'Odyr' that they've known for many years (very intimately), indeed hunted, killed, and ate a large, healthy, full-grown adult male brown bear with a palm callus width of 18 cm.

Hence why this case was confirmed and reported on LIVE TV news, by the Governor, and confirmed by the biologists & employees working for two scientific organizations - Amur Tiger Center and 'Reserved Amur Region'.

The video, countless (ALL) reports, TV News, confirmation from TWO scientific organizations, and the 2 emails, completely debunk and expose that clearly FAKE and ISOLATED "email", which claims the killed bear was a "3 year old" named "Misha".

And lastly, BroBear, you're a compulsive liar who loves to spread blatant lies and misinformation about tiger-bear relations, you invent imaginary characters who don't exist, and you love to put your own made-up spin on accounts and ridicule highly reputable and experienced biologists, rangers, zoologists, hunters, and other authorities, just because they often say facts that doesn't suit your fanatical agenda and preconceived ideas.

Your whole extremely biased opinion on tiger-brown bear relations, is solely based on guesswork, wild speculations, false empty claims, and zero evidence. Add to this, you even love to ridicule and dismiss expert authorities who are a million times more experienced, qualified, and knowledgeable than you are. That says it all. Reply