Amur Tigers

[Apex Titan]

(01-11-2024, 10:40 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-11-2024, 07:22 PM)Apex Titan Wrote:

(01-11-2024, 01:08 AM)Pckts Wrote: This is nonsense, we have numerous verified accounts of Bears displacing, defeating or stale mating Tigers. You really think a larger Brown isn't going to do the same thing a Sloth Bear or Himalayan Black Bear has done? 

Even your claim about wolves is based off of limited information, the same way a wolf pack can contest a large brown bear on a kill they can absolutely do the same to Tiger. It's no different than Hyenas relationships with Lions, can they displace a Large male, probably not but they certainly could pester and definitely give a female or youngster a tough time.

Nonsense?? Did you even read my post properly? I was talking about brown bears not giving serious competition to tigers. Not once did I say or imply that a large brown bear is not capable of displacing, defeating or stale-mating a tiger. Don't twist my words. A predominantly vegetarian predator is never gonna give any competition to a similar-sized hyper-carnivorous APEX predator, which is also the brown bears own natural predator.

How many times has a sloth bear or Himalayan black bear ever contested a tiger for its kill? Or displaced a tiger? How many cases throughout history? Aside from Jim Corbett's highly exceptional singular account, there's none...zero.

Defeated? What? How many cases throughout history are there of sloth bears and Himalayan black bears "defeating" tigers in serious fights? Every single fight to the death recorded in all of history resulted in the bears getting killed and devoured. Its a mismatch. Only the larger brown bears, in very rare cases, have actually managed to kill a tiger, and even then, there are only 12, very old outdated cases (only females & young tigers killed) from the last century. Nothing from the last 30+ years.

"Defeating" mostly young juvenile tigers and females in short little skirmishes does not count as a sloth bear "defeating" a tiger in a proper fight. That's ridiculous. The Matkusar case was a rare exception, had he continued to fight, he would have certainly killed and eaten the bear. He was never in any danger at all and almost looked like he was toying with the bear.

The last time a tiger (moderate-sized individual) and a big male brown bear recently clashed in a serious fight, the bear was killed and eaten.

And stop comparing Bengal tiger-bear relations to Amur tiger-bear relations. Amur tigers are far more aggressive towards bears and hunt them at a much greater frequency than Bengal tigers do. Bears are actually one of the Amur tigers favourite food, whereas Bengal tigers predominantly hunt large ungulate prey animals. And that's why there's much more accounts of Amur tigers killing and eating brown bears and Himalayan black bears than Bengal tigers killing sloth bears/Himalayan black bears. It's simply not comparable.

The bears of the Russian Far East face a much greater threat and danger from tigers than sloth bears do. 

My claim about wolves is based on plenty of research and observations from field biologists, zoologists, rangers and hunters. For over 50 years now, various Russian biologists have reported that wolves actively avoid tiger territories because tigers will viciously seek out and kill wolves whenever the opportunity arises. Evidence & research suggests that tigers depress wolf populations to the point of localized extinction or to such low numbers as to make them functionally insignificant in the ecosystem.

This is why today in all of the nature reserves that have Amur tigers, wolves are very rare or completely non-existent in those areas.

Also, there's not a single case of even a large wolf pack contesting even a female or young tiger for its kill. None, whatsoever. The huge difference is, wolves don't fear big male brown bears and will challenge them, but they highly fear tigers of both sexes. Brown bears will tolerate wolves and in some cases, run from them, whereas tigers completely dominate wolves, reduce their numbers, and will attack and kill wolves without hesitation. Tigers and bears have a completely different nature and mindset.

How can you possibly compare Hyena-Lion relations to Amur tiger-wolves relations? Now that's nonsense. There's plenty of videos, documentaries and accounts of hyena's displacing and chasing away multiple lions, even treeing lions and attacking them. Is there the same when it comes to tigers and wolves? No.

And when it comes to dealing with bears, the Amur tiger and Bengal tiger have a different mindset to each other. The Russian tiger is much more bolder, aggressive, and experienced in this regard.

And again, it's nonsense.
Miquelle and Petruneko determined 18% of Tiger kills were used by Bears and more specifically at least 8 cases of Tigrers being displaced by Bears on these kills with an estimated more than recorded. 

Quote:How many times has a sloth bear or Himalayan black bear ever contested a tiger for its kill? Or displaced a tiger? How many cases throughout history? Aside from Jim Corbett's highly exceptional singular account, there's none...zero.

Kailash Sankhala
Tiger
Pg 117
"In Ramnagar Division of Uttar Pradesh bears have been found poaching tiger kills."

Thapar
speaking on bears
"sometimes feed on carrion and have been known to chase tigers off kills"

And this is for a bear that very rarely actually feeds on meat but how many videos do we have of Bears chasing Tigers?
Male, female, mating pair, it doesn't matter, the Bear has been able to displace them. A Sloth bear is relatively slow, smaller than it's brown cousin and makes noise when it walks through yet it's able to live in Tiger dense forests, why do you think that is?
It's an absolute risk for any Tiger to attempt on, not saying they cant fall victim but a big male bear is going to be a match for any male Tiger with the no way of knowing what the outcome would be.

Quote:Defeated? What? How many cases throughout history are there of sloth bears and Himalayan black bears "defeating" tigers in serious fights? Every single fight to the death recorded in all of history resulted in the bears getting killed and devoured. Its a mismatch. Only the larger brown bears, in very rare cases, have actually managed to kill a tiger, and even then, there are only 12, very old outdated cases (only females & young tigers killed) from the last century. Nothing from the last 30+ years.

Nonsense

Quote:"Defeating" mostly young juvenile tigers and females in short little skirmishes does not count as a sloth bear "defeating" a tiger in a proper fight. That's ridiculous. The Matkusar case was a rare exception, had he continued to fight, he would have certainly killed and eaten the bear. He was never in any danger at all and almost looked like he was toying with the bear.

You mean he attempted a predation and failed to kill a small Female then was driven away. 

Quote:And stop comparing Bengal tiger-bear relations to Amur tiger-bear relations. Amur tigers are far more aggressive towards bears and hunt them at a much greater frequency than Bengal tigers do. Bears are actually one of the Amur tigers favourite food, whereas Bengal tigers predominantly hunt large ungulate prey animals. And that's why there's much more accounts of Amur tigers killing and eating brown bears and Himalayan black bears than Bengal tigers killing sloth bears/Himalayan black bears. It's simply not comparable.

The bears of the Russian Far East face a much greater threat and danger from tigers than sloth bears do. 

Much more of the same
You're speaking in absolutes and running round in circles, you misinterpret studies while disregarding actual first hand encounters or making up behavioral conclusions without any valid evidence to back it.
It's going nowhere, there's too much fanatical opinions being tossed around as fact.

Quote:And again, it's nonsense.

Miquelle and Petruneko determined 18% of Tiger kills were used by Bears and more specifically at least 8 cases of Tigrers being displaced by Bears on these kills with an estimated more than recorded. 

This is ridiculous. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Key word: "USED". What does that mean? Oh yes, bears primarily scavenging on tiger kills. Correction, at least 8 cases of female tigers being displaced by bears in a period of 1992-2013. Even if there were slightly more cases, that's nothing. It's still a rarity. Where's the serious competition??

The same biologists (as well as other STP biologists) report that the most typical case was when bears fed on the tigers left-overs after it had already left the vicinity. Large male brown bears do not risk contesting adult male tigers for their kills, it's simply too risky and too dangerous for the bear.

During their entire study period (1992-2013, and even till today) STP biologists never found a single case of even a huge male brown bear displacing an adult male tiger, let alone contesting an adult male tiger for his kill. Nothing, zero cases. Again, where's the serious competition??

The fact is, it's quite rare for an adult male brown bear to contest even a tigress for her kill. In vast majority of cases, the bear will patiently wait for the tigress to finish eating, leave the vicinity and then he'll move in and "steal" or "use" her kill by scavenging on her left-overs. This is exactly what extensive scientific research shows.

And as biologist Goodrich mentioned in his recent article, when the tigress returns to her kill hungry, the brown bear would yield to the tigress.

Quote:Kailash Sankhala
Tiger
Pg 117
"In Ramnagar Division of Uttar Pradesh bears have been found poaching tiger kills."

Thapar
speaking on bears
"sometimes feed on carrion and have been known to chase tigers off kills"

Sankhala said: "poaching tiger kills" which clearly refers to sloth bears scavenging on tiger kills. He never said ANYTHING about sloth bears "displacing" tigers from kills or contesting them. You're twisting his words.

I can give you countless examples of leopards, jackals, vultures etc, "poaching lion kills". So? That proves absolutely nothing.

And yet Thapar never gave a single example or specific account of a sloth bear "chasing" a tiger off its kill. Bengal tigers and sloth bears get filmed all the time, their interactions get documented all the time, every year thousands of tourists go on safari in India, so why isn't there a single account recorded in history (old times & modern times) of a sloth bear ever displacing a tiger from its kill?  Just show me one single specific account? Just one?

In fact, just show me a single account of an adult sloth bear displacing even a juvenile tiger from its kill? Or even having the guts to attempt it?

Also note, Valmik Thapar in all his several decades of field experience, has never witnessed a single instance of a sloth bear contesting any tiger (male, female, or juveniles) for its kill, let alone chasing them off. 

And here's the full context of Thapar's statement that you posted: "Although it must be admitted that the tiger usually comes off better in these encounters."

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9Dvx...rs&f=false

Quote:And this is for a bear that very rarely actually feeds on meat but how many videos do we have of Bears chasing Tigers?
Male, female, mating pair, it doesn't matter, the Bear has been able to displace them. A Sloth bear is relatively slow, smaller than it's brown cousin and makes noise when it walks through yet it's able to live in Tiger dense forests, why do you think that is?
It's an absolute risk for any Tiger to attempt on, not saying they cant fall victim but a big male bear is going to be a match for any male Tiger with the no way of knowing what the outcome would be.

Stop pretending. Most of the videos show sloth bears chasing away young juvenile tigers or tigresses. But there's also many videos and accounts showing vice versa. Add to this, there are numerous accounts of tigresses actually KILLING and eating sloth bears, and what about vice versa? Nothing, zero cases.

That's a completely pointless argument and question. Both brown bears and Himalayan black bears are able to live in tiger dense forests, despite being hunted and killed on a regular basis by tigers. So? Gaurs, wild buffaloes, wild boar, sambar etc, are all able to live in tiger dense forests despite being actively killed and eaten by tigers. Yes, sloth bears can live in tiger dense forests, but that doesn't negate the fact that they can be hunted and killed at any frequency by tigers, with some tigers becoming habitual sloth bear killers.

Your last statement was a joke. A big male sloth bear would get annihilated every single time in a serious fight against any male tiger. We have a very recent account of a medium-sized male tiger destroying a larger, full-grown adult male brown bear in a fight, and you actually think a big male sloth bear would be a match for any tiger! Are you serious??! 

In a proper fight, a big male sloth bear would get killed and eaten by a tigress, let alone a male tiger.

Like I said before, throughout history, statistics and fight accounts easily refute your laughable statement. Once again, in every single case, ever, of a fight to the death between a tiger and a sloth bear or Himalayan black bear, the bears were killed and devoured in every single case.

In a death match, even against the largest male sloth bears, the outcome is easy to predict because it's a total mismatch. The tiger will be eating the bear for lunch. This is what history and evidence consistently shows over and over again.

You're grossly exaggerating the sloth bears capabilities. 

Quote:

Quote:Defeated? What? How many cases throughout history are there of sloth bears and Himalayan black bears "defeating" tigers in serious fights? Every single fight to the death recorded in all of history resulted in the bears getting killed and devoured. Its a mismatch. Only the larger brown bears, in very rare cases, have actually managed to kill a tiger, and even then, there are only 12, very old outdated cases (only females & young tigers killed) from the last century. Nothing from the last 30+ years.

Nonsense

OK, so you have ZERO evidence to prove otherwise. Good.

You know my statement is pure facts.

And you do realize that just because you said its "nonsense" doesn't automatically turn facts and reality into "nonsense", right?

Quote:You mean he attempted a predation and failed to kill a small Female then was driven away. 

You know this statement is clearly false and yet you still stated this nonsense for the sake of argument. Or either you haven't got a clue how tigers or any big cat hunts.

Since when did tigers casually walk right up to a bear or any animal face-to-face in a nonchalant manner when hunting them?

It was very clear that Matkasur was NOT hunting the bear. He initially wanted to keep her away from the watering hole (which he succeeded in), the bear was afraid and panicked, the encounter then turned into a fight, in which Matkasur easily over-powered the bear and almost looked like he was toying with her, then, the sloth bear who was totally terrified inside and is fighting for its life, managed to discourage and fend off Matkasur's attack and drive him away. In the end, the bears fled back into the jungle, whereas the tiger succeeded and kept the watering hole to himself.

That was an exceptional case and that's why it went so viral because the bear luckily managed to survive and escape death.

If Matkasur was determined to kill, that bear was a goner and you know it. 

Quote:Much more of the same
You're speaking in absolutes and running round in circles, you misinterpret studies while disregarding actual first hand encounters or making up behavioral conclusions without any valid evidence to back it.
It's going nowhere, there's too much fanatical opinions being tossed around as fact.

This is comical. Misinterpret what studies? So all those field biologists are talking bullsh*t? I have posted an abundance of factual information, data, studies and accounts from various major authorities and biologists that CONFIRMS everything I said.

The studies from the same biologists you referenced above (Miquelle, Petrenenko) have also reported the same thing. So what the hell are you talking about?

What I said about the frequency difference of tiger predation on bears and behavioral differences between Amur and Bengal tigers is a pure, complete, established fact backed up by countless evidence which I've posted on this forum and other forums. Stop pretending and be real here.

And lastly, you're the one tossing around "fanatical opinions" without a shred of any valid evidence to back it by ridiculously claiming that a big male sloth bear is a match for any tiger. Where's your evidence? 

At best, the largest male sloth bears and Himalayan black bears can only fend off a tiger attack, but in a serious fight, the big male bears are getting slaughtered and devoured every time:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://archive.org/details/wildbeastsst...t/mode/2up

Tiger hunts down and chases a large male sloth bear, pulls him off the tree and kills and eats the bear after a fight:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

I challenge you to show me vice versa? Reply