Amur Tigers

[Apex Titan]

(10-03-2023, 10:54 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(10-03-2023, 06:01 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: I know Peter wants to continue this discussion in the extinction thread, but I have to call you out for all the bold-faced LIES and nonsense you're saying about me.

I am absolutely MIND-BLOWN that you have the nerve and audacity to actually say that I started the insults! ARE YOU SERIOUS??? How can you seriously say that? EVERYONE can clearly see who started the insults. I never insulted you once....not once! You're the one who started calling me a "fanboy" and "childish" and "fanatic" out of nowhere. You also called one of my statements "idiotic", when I replied to your post in a friendly and civil manner. You are blatantly lying.

Why don't you contact every single mod on this forum and ask them who started the insults, who took this discussion personal, and who's the only one saying insults??  Yeah? Go ask them and we'll see who's the liar. In fact, why don't you read Peter's post in the extinction thread and see who he thinks started the insults and ridiculing. Even a half blind person can clearly see it was you. 

We could have discussed or debated this in a nice civil manner, but no, you just had to show your blatant arrogance, throw insults and make those condescending remarks.

You're the one who got badly triggered over nothing. And when the hell did I insult the scientists from the Siberian Tiger Project?? Again, another blatant false accusation based on TWISTING MY WORDS, lying and deliberately misrepresenting me. Once again, all I said is that their capturing methods were harmful and inhumane because some tigers got INJURED from the foot snares. You might not care if animals get hurt while capturing, but I do!  However, I clearly told you that I respect the STP biologists because they published good information and insights about the ecology of wild Amur tigers. I admitted even I learn't from them. So what the hell are you on about?  You're such a liar.

Your responses are filled with lies, deceit, character assassination attempts and false accusations. In spite of this, you actually have the audacity to say I'm the "immature" one who took this "personal". What a ridiculous statement. Everyone can clearly see who took this discussion personal. You got some damn nerve.

You got all triggered and pissed off just because I have a different opinion on the true average weights of wild Amur tigers. 

Yes, I very clearly exposed your double standards. And yes, you did indirectly insult the marine scientists who said megalodon is the greatest apex predator of all time. How? You clearly accused the marine scientists and biologists of "exaggerating" the megalodon to be some type of "invincible movie monster", remember? Whenever any article, information or statement from a marine scientist/paleontologist etc, talking about how formidable and dominant the megalodon was, all you do is try down grade the megalodon with nothing but pure guesswork, biased opinions and basically accuse marine experts of exaggerating the predator. And why?...

because you have a very clear preference and strong bias towards cetaceans, especially orcas and the Livyatan melvillei. You're clearly not fond of sharks at all, so when most, if not all of the worlds top renowned marine predator experts, scientists, researchers, biologists, paleontologists etc, all widely acknowledge the megalodon to be the greatest and most formidable predator in the history of this planet, then it must be all 'nonsense', right? because it's a shark and not a whale, yes?

I can guarantee you that if the worlds top marine predator experts and scientists said all this about the Livyatan whale, you would happily accept and believe their words. And you know it. But they don't and never will. The megalodon is given this title and status for a very good reason, period. There's NO "exaggeration" going on. You're the one being blatantly arrogant and toxic by ignorantly disputing the statements and research of renowned marine predator experts and researchers and indirectly accusing them of being some "megalodon fanboys" or something, ridiculous.

However, whenever scientists/experts say anything that suits your agenda and opinions, then they must be 100% right, because they're the qualified experts, aren't they? So according to actual qualified and highly respected marine scientists and researchers, the megalodon was the greatest apex predator of all time and nothing posed a threat to it, but according to Guate, a completely unqualified forum poster who has a strong preference and bias towards cetaceans (orcas & whales), the marine scientists are basically talking "nonsense" and "exaggerating" the megalodon to be some "invincible" monster or something, right?

And the megalodon "fanboys" are just a bunch of toxic people because they listen to and accept the words of actual qualified, world renowned marine predator experts and researchers who basically know nothing?

I can't even be bothered to respond to all the rest of what you said, its a waste of my time. You're just repeating yourself. But that's great anyway, because you once again showed that you have absolutely NO CLUE, ZERO EVIDENCE OR DATA about the average sizes and weights of the tigers from the Khabarovsk region and northeast China. You did a marvelous job demonstrating that once again.

All your arguments, speculations and mere opinions mean nothing because you have zero evidence to back up your claims. Did I ever once say or imply that its a "fact" that Khabarovsk tigers are larger than Primorye tigers? NO, and I repeat....not once!  You just love twisting my words and misrepresenting me. I made it very clear that it's only my assumption, nothing more. 

For the last time now, I don't care what you say about prey density, population size etc, the reality and FACT is that very large male tigers are seen and traced in other regions/countries like Khabarovsk Krai and northeast China. And none of these huge males (apart from two) have been captured or weighed. And the FACT also is that the weight data/samples from the Siberian Tiger Project is LIMITED and clearly inconclusive for reasons I mentioned before.

And when a highly trained, experienced and seasoned biologist who actually studies tigers and bears in the Anyuisky National Park says the tiger "the Beast" is a giant or incredibly huge tiger, I think I'll take his word for it instead of a completely unqualified, armchair "expert" who in reality is just a forum poster with very limited and inconclusive info and data.

And by the way, you said Amur tigers look bigger than they really are with winter coats, thats why I posted this picture (below). Is this a tiger with a winter coat? NO. Anyone can clearly see that this is a large, massively built tiger with huge forequarters, skull and neck:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

This huge tiger lives in a region (Khabarovsk) with a lower prey density and population of tigers than Primorye. Has he been weighed? Nope. Is it possible that he weighs well over 200 kg? Yes.

And thats exactly my point, but you keep failing to understand. Amur tigers from various areas, regions and countries must be weighed to determine the true average weight. Thats common sense!

And here we go again....... I am so tired of you, but I will take a couple of minutes.

I honestly don't care about you say about me, the information that I posted talk more than simple words. It is weird to see all the frustration and anger in your words, that honestly I can't imagine you like a mature person, or what you are going to do with problems in real life. I read it only once and what I see is a little kid crying and screaming because we are not doing what he want. Anyone that read your post can see that.

Now, you say that you did not insulted the team of the Siberian Tiger Project? This image shows something diferent:

*This image is copyright of its original author

So, who is the liar?

If you ask me if I think that you are a "fanboy", "childish" and "fanatic", well based in all your posts here I will say yes. In fact, you used 50% of your last post talking about Megalodon (really? ), when the entire post is about Amur tigers! It is funny because you insist that I "insulted" the experts on the Meg, when anyone can go and read what I said directly, so I don't need to do anything, my posts talk by themselves. By the way, I never said that the experts said that Meg was an "invincible movie monster", I said that YOU said that, and based in this same post, you insist on that. Do I need to explain again why Meg is still regarded as the top marine predator and Livyatan not? Honestly, I invite to any poster interested in that to visit the topics of the Megalodon, I will not waste time in copy the same information here.

This letters from you shows how little reading comprehention you have: "For the last time now, I don't care what you say about prey density, population size etc, the reality and FACT is that very large male tigers are seen and traced in other regions/countries like Khabarovsk Krai and northeast China. "

So you don't care about the TRUE SCIENCE that explain the variations of size and population based in prey density, genetic variations and human effect in the environment? Well, that shows that you are NOT INTERESTED in learn anything and that you only want to "win" the debate. Also, when did I said that north China tigers are not big? Kid, I litteraly said, several times, that north China tigers seems bigger than those from Russia and that the same happened (apparently) in the past based in the hunting records, but you only read what you want. Again, other evidence of your immature attitude.

It is lame that you say that I did presented "zero evidence or data" when actually I am the only one in this "debate" that is actually showing real data, information, graphics, images and even comparative images to show that visual comparison with no point of reference is pointless. I mean, check your post and you are only insulting, crying and complaining, but check mines and you see real data, analysis and objective appreciation of the case.

So, is necesary to continue with this? I feel like if I am presenting a class and you are just like a conflictive student complaining about it. What is the point? If we are going to continue with the proposal of Peter, are you going to continue with this attitude? You presented no evidence of your statement, just a picture, an opinion of an expert (yes, is an expert but is only an opinion and for only one specimen in the area), and a single paw print measurement!


My kind advice, take an imperative time to READ what I wrote, read it three or four times, and when you finally understand it, return and then we can continue. If not, I think that even the proposal of Peter will be a waste of time.

I find it hilarious that you're the one who's saying that I'm the one who's "crying", "whining", "insulting" and "complaining." Can you read properly? Can you fully understand English words and sentences?

Like I said before, why don't you contact every mod on this forum and ask them who's the one who started the insults, whining and complaining? Huh? Please, go ahead, and we'll see who's the liar.

When did I ever say that you said that tigers from northeast China are not big? What the hell are you on about? As usual, just another lie from you. Go back and carefully read my posts again. You do a marvelous job at twisting my words and making false accusations.

Liar? No Guate, only according to YOU, I repeat....only according to you did I "insult" the Siberian Tiger Project. What insult though? Just because I criticized their harmful capture methods they used to catch tigers. I will happily say it again. The STP biologists used inhumane, harmful, bullshit methods to capture tigers. Thank you once again Guate for confirming that you basically don't give a shit about tigers who get injured and harmed by the Aldrich foot snares.

Let me further expose the Siberian Tiger Projects harmful capture methods: Project "Amur Tiger" or "Plague on both your houses..."

"We have no doubt and consider it proven from the examples given that catching tigers with Aldrich's leg loops, as well as immobilizing them from a helicopter, can and does have a detrimental effect on animals and in some cases leads to death of not only the tigers themselves, but also humans."

http://debri-dv.com/article/5993

Skull of a male tiger that damaged its teeth during capture of WCS:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Male tiger Sergei:

"Alas, now visiting - this mighty tiger, in the prime of his life, did not have long to live. On November 7, he again fell into the noose. In the three-plus weeks that had passed since his first capture, the predator was clearly in distress: he was extremely exhausted, and the wound on his paw was inflamed. Didn't lick it."

Tiger Sergei a month before he was injured by the Aldrich foot snare:  You don't mind Guate when big, beautiful, healthy tigers like this get badly effected and injured by the Aldrich foot snares?

*This image is copyright of its original author

A fragment of the broken fang of the tiger Ivan, which tore off the loop during the WCS capture:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Injuries received by the tiger Ivan while in the Aldrich loop:

*This image is copyright of its original author

So as you can see, some tigers were harmed by the Aldrich foot snares which can and does have a detrimental effect on the animal.

So once again, what lie? What insult? I'm speaking FACTS!!  You just can't handle the facts and truth. The STP biologists are not as "perfect" as you think they are.

And once again, because you clearly can't comprehend simple English words. Why did I talk about megalodon? because I was EXPOSING YOUR BLATANT DOUBLE STANDARDS. You agree with and happily accept the findings and statements of scientists and experts when it suits your agenda and views, but any scientist or expert saying anything you don't like to hear, you just arrogantly dismiss them. And yes, you INDIRECTLY, not directly, but indirectly accused the marine scientists, experts and paleontologists of "exaggerating" the megalodon. This is very clear from your posts.

Your the one who's grossly over-exaggerating like a fanboy. The Livyatan Melvillei is nothing but a glorified sperm whale, nothing more. Most, if not all of the worlds top marine scientists, biologists and paleontologists all widely acknowledge the megalodon to be the greatest and most formidable apex predator of all time, the undisputed top predator of the ocean. No one thinks the Livyatan Melvillei was, period. And there's a very good reason for it. And then you have the nerve to say that I'm "exaggerating" the megalodon, when in reality, world renowned marine scientists and experts all agree with my view and disagree with yours, what a joke.

Lets put the megalodon subject aside now, I was just pointing out your double standards, that was my actual point.

Yes, I don't care about your explanations about prey density and population size. But did I disagree with you? NO. Did I ever say that it doesn't have an affect? NO. You, as always, just twist my words or either you can't understand English properly. I just acknowledge that there are other factors, aside from prey density and population size, to consider when it comes to tiger size. Like genes/genetics.

Is it a FACT, not my opinion, but a fact that 'large' and 'very large' male tigers described to be "gigantic", "monster tigers" or "giants" are being seen and traced in the Khabarovsk territories? YES!! According to who? Random forum posters? clueless laymen? NO. But according to highly trained, seasoned and experienced biologists, rangers and specialists who have spent several decades exploring and roaming the remote and vast Ussuri taiga forests.

Who do you expect me to listen to? You, a completely inexperienced, untrained, unqualified armchair "tiger expert" or the real field experts/biologists who have dedicated their entire lives to studying and tracking wild Amur tigers in the Russian taiga?

Its not about "winning the debate", my whole point was that huge male tigers have been documented, seen and traced in the Khabarovsk Krai and northeast China, and none of these giants (apart from two) have been captured or weighed. So based on this fact, I personally think that the true average weight of modern Amur tigers could be higher than what you think it is. But this is just my speculation, but I maybe right. Who knows. And you got all triggered and started crying and insulting me just because I said this and have my own opinion. How pathetic. You're the one acting childish and immature.

You posted real data, information, graphics and images? Really? Where? No one saw it. Where's all your "real data" and evidences of the average weights of Khabarovsk and northeast China tigers? Because thats what I was referring too. Show me? We'd all like to see that.

To end this all, just show me the weight data and evidence of modern adult male Amur tigers that were captured and weighed in various regions, not just the Primorye region?

If you can't, then I'm right. You have ZERO evidence/data on the average weights of modern Amur tigers from the Khabarovsk territories and northeast China. Reply