Amur Tigers

[Apex Titan]

(08-09-2023, 10:05 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(08-08-2023, 06:11 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: We simply don't know what the true average weight is of modern Amur tigers, thats a fact. The Siberian Tiger Project research/weight samples were very limited. They conducted their research in the Primorye region. STP biologists never captured or weighed any adult tigers from the Khabarovsk region.

Just like how the Bengal tigers from Nepal, the Terai and Assam regions appear to be larger on average than the central Indian tigers, the male Amur tigers from the Khabarovsk territories also appear to be clearly larger on average than the tigers from the Primorsky territories. There are several giant male tigers from the Anyuisky National Park in the Khabarovsk region, that haven't been captured or weighed. Male tigers with heel width's of 13.5 cm or more.

The Siberian Tiger Project weight data (1992 - 2005) is outdated now. In much more recent times, especially in the Khabarovsk region, there are more and more truly huge and extremely robust looking male tigers that easily rival the largest Nepalese, Terai and Assam tigers in size. I know this judgment is based on camera trap photos/videos, but the sheer size and robustness of these large male Amur tigers is very clear to see.

Russian researchers and biologists nowadays don't use those inhumane bullshit methods that the Siberian Tiger Project used to capture tigers. In fact there's an article written by biologist Sergey Kolchin exposing the STP biologists and the harmful methods they used to capture tigers, which resulted in injuring some tigers.

All in all, no one knows the true average weight of modern Amur tigers, period. Healthy full-grown adult male tigers from various areas and regions need to be captured and weighed to determine the real average weight. I don't know why people keep referring to the Siberian Tiger Project's weight data as the "final last truth" or something. Again, their data is very limited and inconclusive. Things have changed since then!

You people have SERIOUS problems with this point about the size of the Amur tiger. There is this little group of "fanatics" of the Amur tiger that still reject the information about the scientist that actually worked (and stil work) with Amur tigers, independently if they are from USA or from Russia, but you hate them just because they did not found any "giant" tiger during they research. Your attitude against them is childish.

The sample of tigers captured by the Siberian Tiger Project is not "limited", they captured all specimens that they could, of all ages, during several years, independently of they healty state, so they sample is umbiased and reliable. Check that there are other specimens captured after 2005 and STILL there is no male over 205 kg in that sample. Only thing that I noted is that males of 200 kg or more are everytime more common, and that is good news because a healtier population will produce bigger animals. No one denied the fact that Amur tigers can and do reached figures of 250-270 kg in the past, as the evidence that a I have showed proved, but in modern years no male of that mass has been captured and published yet. So, is just a matter of time, I guess.

The heel width of 13.5 cm is based in TRACES not from real measurements in the flesh, so as we know a trace in any sustrate, including snow, can deceave depending of several factors. Is interesting that when male M-12 (A.K.A. "Dale") was captured in 1995, its pad size (not trace) was of 12.5 cm measured in the flesh, and he weighed only 202 kg. Probably the tigers captured by The Amur Tiger Programme are bigger than him, but at this moment, no male over 212 kg has been captured, and these other males are from another region appart from the Sikhote-Alin.

It is interesting that you mention Khabarovsk as a source of "giant" tigers, when actually as far I remember that region has less prey density than those from Primorsky, or Manchuria (north of China) where the Dr Femg Limin is aparently capturing tigers. Again, images from camera traps with no point of comparison are usless to estimate size, why you people don't understand this?

This is really idiotic: "Russian researchers and biologists nowadays don't use those inhumane bullshit methods that the Siberian Tiger Project used to capture tigers."

So, how do you think that the "modern Russian researchers" capture tigers in these days????? With SNARES! And guess what, Sergey Kolchin is not complaining only about some captures of the Siberian Tiger Project, but about the capture of The Amur Tiger Programme, which is managed 100% by Russian people! You should check your sources before made this kind of asseverations. Check that Kolchin complained about a tiger nicknamed "Boxer" as his paw was very inflated because of the snare that capture him, and guess what (again), this tigers was NOT captured by USA scientist of the Siberian Tiger Project, but by Russians of the Amur Tiger Programme. At the end, of course that there were mistaked in the captures, all human activity is sensitive of errors, but the BIG number of captures of the Siberian Tiger Project were not only successfull but the health of the specimens was monitored and they survived many years after been captured and even checked during the rest of they lives. Is interesting that the Siberian Tiger Project stoped activities after the Amur Tiger Programme started working, so it was a govermental movement that stoped the activites, nothing more. And not, The Amur Tiger Programme do not capture tigers now unless is really necesary.

At 2023, do we know the current average of the male Amur tigers? Not yet, as the captures for study purposes in Russia stoped in 2012, and probably there is a change in the figures at this moment, but this is something that we already know as the mass of the Amur tigers has changed during the time because of the human preasure, from c.220 kg before 1950, to c.170 kg before 1992, up to c.190 kg at 2011, and the specific sample of 5 males from Ussuri region reached the average of c.203 kg. So, we can guess that at this time the average could be around 200 kg or more, and the last tiger captured for safety issues in the towns was a little over 206 kg, which prove my theory that tigers are increasing in body mass, BUT for the moment, based in the real evidence available, 190 kg seems to be they average, for now. I think that we should pay attention to China this time, they are starting to investigate tigers and probably they are going to capture some specimens, so time will tell us if the famous tigers of "Manchuria" (which are from Sikhote-Alin origin now, if you remember) did reach the size of they ancestors prior 1950.


Finally this: "I don't know why people keep referring to the Siberian Tiger Project's weight data as the "final last truth" or something. Again, their data is very limited and inconclusive."


Dude, it seems that you don't know anything about the Siberian Tiger Project. They were not there only to captured and weigh tigers, they made the first scientific study based in modern science and made the most important discoveries about the Amur tiger: social life, biolody, ecology and behaviour. There made the first approach to the real thing using "quantitative" data, and not just anectodical stories like some old Russian explorers. Also, they not only had USA scientists but also Russian scientists in they team, which did capture and measure the animals, check this:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Do you think that these guys are from USA?

So, I repeat, to hate the Siberian Tiger Project, the most important study about the Amur tiger in history, just because the tigers in the area of Sikhote-Alin were not the giants reported in the past, is stupid, unrealistic and unprofessional, and shows how inmmature are you and the people that care more about the weights instead about the scientific knowledge that they gathered with great effort in all the years that they worked in the field. Imagine if we do the same with the long therm studies made with tigers in India and Nepal in to 80's and 90's? The data of the Siberian Tiger Project is far from been "limited and inconclusive", in fact I will love to see you telling this to the real people that worked in this project like Dale Miquelle, John Goodrich, Linda Kerley, and many others. What face you will put when they answer to you about this, IF they think that you worth the time....

At the end, data on body size, weight and skulls shows that Amur and Bengal tigers reach the same size, and we know that Bengal tigers are the heaviest of the modern cats, so what is the problem????

You're way too sensitive! Did I insult you?? NO! Did I once deny the fact that Amur and Bengal tigers are the same size?? NO!!  Did I ever claim that Amur tigers from the past were larger than Bengal tigers? NO! Did I ever claim that I believe in the notion (common misconception) that Amur tigers are the largest tiger subspecies?? NOPE! Did I ever once say that I "hate" the STP scientists and researchers?? NO I DIDN'T.

You blew my statements way out of proportion and got badly triggered over nothing. Of course I respect the Siberian Tiger Project researchers/biologists. Its because of them that we know a lot about Amur tiger ecology and predatory behaviour etc. I just criticized their harmful methods to capture tigers. Maybe you don't care when tigers (or other animals) get hurt during capture, but I do! I never once stated or implied that the research and information they published was "unreliable" or "incorrect" or something. And I never once, ever "rejected" their info. All I'm saying is we don't know the true average weight of modern Amur tigers, thats all. This particular topic is more complex. You're twisting my words, badly exaggerating and misrepresenting me!

And of course I know that some Russian biologists worked in the Siberian Tiger Project. FFS, the project leader was a Russian - Ivan Seryodkin! You actually think I didn't know this?? I know plenty about the Siberian Tiger Project and the biologists, you don't need to tell me anything.

You're the one acting childish, whining like a kid and insulting me just because I said we don't know the real average weight of Amur tigers and for criticizing the STP inhumane capture methods! Are you serious?!

Did the Siberian Tiger Project weigh male tigers from the Khabarovsk region?? NO, they never. The fact is they captured and weighed tigers only in the Primorye region. So yes, their weight samples are limited. I don't care what you say, but thats the facts. There's a whole other region in which the STP researchers didn't study or weigh tigers, period. And yes, in the Khabarovsk region, there are more huge male tigers seen there than in Primorye. 

You also have BLATANT DOUBLE STANDARDS. Its funny that whenever you post information to suit your agenda or views, then the scientists are always right and the true experts. But yet you arrogantly dismissed and basically called "bullshit" on all the worlds top marine scientists and experts who widely regard the megalodon to be the greatest apex predator, superior to any predator of all time. Why? because you have a strong bias and clear preference for cetaceans, especially orcas and the livyatan melvillei. Whenever scientists and experts post information that you don't like to hear, then, according to you, they're "wrong". Or they're "exaggerating".  They all think the megalodon was a "war machine" or "movie monster", right?

The funny thing is, I actually DO AGREE with your conclusion that Amur tigers and Bengal tigers are the same size, and probably always have been. I agree that the Bengal tiger goes against Bergmann's rule. I also agree that Bengal tigers are the world's heaviest extant big cats today. I never, ever denied these facts!! So before you jump to conclusions, try to misrepresent me and insult me, how about you actually read and understand my posts properly.

Tiger weights and sizes are not my expertise. I admit that you know much more than me about the sizes/weights of big cats. My interest and focus is on tiger ecology and predatory behaviour/habits. Once again, you got triggered over nothing and just talked nonsense. Reply