Modern Weights and Measurements of Leopards

[Pckts]

(01-26-2023, 07:32 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(01-26-2023, 04:42 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-26-2023, 03:25 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(01-26-2023, 02:14 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-25-2023, 12:17 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(01-24-2023, 11:26 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-24-2023, 03:41 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(01-24-2023, 03:14 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-24-2023, 03:02 AM)Luipaard Wrote: @Pckts 

Do you realise that you're being a hypocrite at this point? You question everything despite what's being presented to you. From personal communications to official reports, you do not believe a single word from the persons who provide us exclusive information. But as expected for jaguars there are different standards. Tell me, what's the difference between a voice message and an Instagram message? Because Iman Mermarian sent three members of this forum the same info and still you do not deem it reliable but an Instagram message from a biologist saying a jaguar weighs "about" 110kg is good enough all of a sudden? You are not playing this game fair and square.

Lets try this one last time...
No one has presented a single shred of evidence for a 115kg Leopard. Who was there, who weighed him, when was he weighed, what were his measurements? etc.
 The only weight mentioned is 95kg so what is the issue?
Not to mention this specific Leopard has had controversy left and right with multiple weights claimed and thrown away. 
In regards to the Biologist, he literally is on video discussing the capture the and measurements of Joker, Oncafari has provided actual capture data and measurements. Where as Iman has provided nothing that's comparable. 

You use fan made tables on skull measurements and 2nd hand Persian leopard measurements with no clarification what weights exist or where they came from yet question anything to do with verified Jaguar data. 
The only hypocrite I see is you.

Quote:Lets try this one last time...
No one has presented a single shred of evidence for a 115kg Leopard. Who was there, who weighed him, when was he weighed, what were his measurements? etc.
 The only weight mentioned is 95kg so what is the issue?

The issue is that you doubt the 95kg figure even after seeing the official report. What more can you ask bar body measurements? Who was there during the weighing of the cat? Iman Memarian, hence why he told us he weighed that much initially and why he's mentioned in the study. The only thing you lack are body measurements, but for jaguars you don't seem to require them hence jaguar 'Mango' being accepted immediately to the infamous table.

Quote:Not to mention this specific Leopard has had controversy left and right with multiple weights claimed and thrown away.

So did Lopez the outlier jaguar who was added twice to the infamous table at one point?

Quote:In regards to the Biologist, he literally is on video discussing the capture the and measurements of Joker, Oncafari has provided actual capture data and measurements. Where as Iman has provided nothing that's comparable.

Iman Memarian has provided his weight (around the time of his euthanasia) alongside two professors. Again this is not enough for you to be reliable but a video or an Instagram message is for jaguars.

Quote:You use fan made tables on skull measurements and 2nd hand Persian leopard measurements with no clarification what weights exist or where they came from yet question anything to do with verified Jaguar data.
The only hypocrite I see is you.

First of all, the "fan made" table contains data from scientific sources exclusively. The jaguar table contains weights from all sort of sources. After all an estimated weight is enough for you to be added to said table (i.e. Mango weighing "around" 110kg).

Very verified I must say.

Quote:The issue is that you doubt the 95kg figure even after seeing the official report. What more can you ask bar body measurements? Who was there during the weighing of the cat? Iman Memarian, hence why he told us he weighed that much initially and why he's mentioned in the study. The only thing you lack are body measurements, but for jaguars you don't seem to require them hence jaguar 'Mango' being accepted immediately to the infamous table.

How about clarification when said Leopard actually weighed 95kg or 115kg or 98kg? How about the weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc.
It's not that difficult. You have multiple claims, without corresponding valid information. 

Mango is simple posted from what the Biologist involved in his capture and collaring stated. You know, the same biologist on video discussing measurements and capture dates and providing those details in public. 

Whether you accept them or not means nothing especially when you post trophy hunter FB posts with no verification for Leopards weighing 80kgs.  

Quote:So did Lopez the outlier jaguar who was added twice to the infamous table at one point?

When was this? When they first made the table and was quickly corrected? 
Meanwhile the same table you use over and over again for Persian Leopards is 2nd sources and you can't even provide the identities of any Leopard mentioned at a weight of 90kgs. Or you using species specific general weights as individuals? 

Quote:Iman Memarian has provided his weight (around the time of his euthanasia) alongside two professors. Again this is not enough for you to be reliable but a video or an Instagram message is for jaguars.

No, just him. And the weight''s'' are all over the board. 3-4 of which he wasn't there for not to  mention one of which that's an "estimated" weight without clarification on when which came and from whom. 
And again your excuses for the Jaguar weights which come from the capture team with data and video/images of the exact capture compared to you using FB trophy hunter claims or trying to 2nd hand weights without knowing where they came from hold no weight. 
You don't seem to realize how poorly these excuses are representing you.

Quote:First of all, the "fan made" table contains data from scientific sources exclusively. The jaguar table contains weights from all sort of sources. After all an estimated weight is enough for you to be added to said table (i.e. Mango weighing "around" 110kg).

 
You mean 2nd hand sources? 
From which you have no clue corresponding captures, weights, measurements, specific details that go along with them compared to all of those data specifics mentioned with the Jaguars. 
And again you use this same excuse you used the last 3 paragraphs meanwhile it holds no truth and only highlights your hypocrisy on the matter.

Quote:How about clarification when said Leopard actually weighed 95kg or 115kg or 98kg? How about the weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc.
It's not that difficult. You have multiple claims, without corresponding valid information. 

You do realise this is a different situation than the Pantanal jaguars being collared? One was brought in (being weighed among other things) for a life-saving operation whereas the latter are being weighed as a protocol when collaring. You demand all kind of things that are not important for the people involved in this case. Be grateful the wildlife veterinarian kindly answered us and that the official report has been presented to you. The report is signed by him and two professors, it's as valid as it gets.

Quote:Mango is simple posted from what the Biologist involved in his capture and collaring stated. You know, the same biologist on video discussing measurements and capture dates and providing those details in public.

You said he's a new individual to be added to the table, meaning you readily accept the weight without knowing "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc.". It's via an Instagram message which is no different than the voice messages Iman Memarian sent us and surely not more valid than the official report of the Persian leopard. The fact that we lack body measurements or info about the scale (why even?) doesn't change that. Those are just criteria of yours.

Quote:Whether you accept them or not means nothing especially when you post trophy hunter FB posts with no verification for Leopards weighing 80kgs.

When did I post "trophy hunter FB posts"?

Quote:When was this? When they first made the table and was quickly corrected? 

Does it matter when it occurred? It happened so "multiple weights were claimed". 

Quote:Meanwhile the same table you use over and over again for Persian Leopards is 2nd sources and you can't even provide the identities of any Leopard mentioned at a weight of 90kgs. Or you using species specific general weights as individuals?

We don't know how they obtained the weights, I'm sure they can provide the identity of each and every individual but that wasn't their aim. All they wanted to publish was an overview of Persian leopard weights.

Quote:No, just him. And the weight''s'' are all over the board. 3-4 of which he wasn't there for not to  mention one of which that's an "estimated" weight without clarification on when which came and from whom.

How do you conclude he wasn't there? There are photos of him being present = evidence. Excuse after excuse again; you doubt the scale capacity, the scale's presence, Iman Memarian's presence, if the weight is estimated or not, ... The list goes on. Nothing convinces you, not even an official report.

Quote:And again your excuses for the Jaguar weights which come from the capture team with data and video/images of the exact capture compared to you using FB trophy hunter claims or trying to 2nd hand weights without knowing where they came from hold no weight. 
You don't seem to realize how poorly these excuses are representing you.

There's the "FB trophy hunter" mention again. When did I post a "FB trophy hunted leopard"?

The person with lots of excuses at his disposal is you. Remember Instagram message > official report according to you.

Quote:You mean 2nd hand sources? 
From which you have no clue corresponding captures, weights, measurements, specific details that go along with them compared to all of those data specifics mentioned with the Jaguars. 
And again you use this same excuse you used the last 3 paragraphs meanwhile it holds no truth and only highlights your hypocrisy on the matter.

There are detailed measurements for some skulls (e.g. Van Neer's 2013 study) meaning they measured the skulls themselves. In their case they collected skulls from two Belgian museums. There's nothing "2nd hand" about them. Again you demand a lot of info because that's your criteria. Luckily you don't decide the requirements of a first-hand source.

Quote:You do realise this is a different situation than the Pantanal jaguars being collared? One was brought in (being weighed among other things) for a life-saving operation whereas the latter are being weighed as a protocol when collaring. You demand all kind of things that are not important for the people involved in this case. Be grateful the wildlife veterinarian kindly answered us and that the official report has been presented to you. The report is signed by him and two professors, it's as valid as it gets.

You do realize that this cat was captured no differently and claims were made. Yet no clarification or proof of said claims have been presented. 
You also interpreting a report means little, we've already seen numerous members here try to do the same on post mortem reports only to get in trouble for making assumptions. 

Quote:You said he's a new individual to be added to the table, meaning you readily accept the weight without knowing "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc.". It's via an Instagram message which is no different than the voice messages Iman Memarian sent us and surely not more valid than the official report of the Persian leopard. The fact that we lack body measurements or info about the scale (why even?) doesn't change that. Those are just criteria of yours.

What are you not understanding? The same person who weighed and presented Jokers measurements also presented Mangos. You know, the one who provided actual capture dates and corresponding body measurements and weighing protocols.  
Nice try though

Quote:When did I post "trophy hunter FB posts"?

Literally the Tanzanian Leopard hanging from the scale is a FB trophy hunter post. The weight claims mean nothing as they will load the cats with weights or have faulty scales.

Quote:Does it matter when it occurred? It happened so "multiple weights were claimed". 

 
Of course it does if they're actively updating a table or else you're left with errors like what happened with the persian table. The fact that you don't seem to understand this or acknowledge it says a lot. 

Quote:How do you conclude he wasn't there? There are photos of him being present = evidence. Excuse after excuse again; you doubt the scale capacity, the scale's presence, Iman Memarian's presence, if the weight is estimated or not, ... The list goes on. Nothing convinces you, not even an official report

Which weighing was he there for? The 115kg? The 98kg? The about 100kg? The 95kg? Or maybe it has to do with the fact that he doesn't have the measurements or capture data and needs to be told what publication they are from? 
Once again, the amount of excuses you try and make for the Jaguar table on being invalid while accepting weights without any actual data or proof for persian leopards is astounding. 

Quote:There are detailed measurements for some skulls (e.g. Van Neer's 2013 study) meaning they measured the skulls themselves. In their case they collected skulls from two Belgian museums. There's nothing "2nd hand" about them. Again you demand a lot of info because that's your criteria. Luckily you don't decide the requirements of a first-hand source.

I'm not sure you know what 2nd hand means?
Van Neer wasn't present during the capture of these cats. They are by definition 2nd hand *belonged to someone else*

Quote:You do realize that this cat was captured no differently and claims were made. Yet no clarification or proof of said claims have been presented. 
You also interpreting a report means little, we've already seen numerous members here try to do the same on post mortem reports only to get in trouble for making assumptions. 

You do realise the proof is right there in front of you, backing Iman Memarian's claims (hint: report).

I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding post mortem reports but in this case we're dealing with a live cat although they were about to put it out of its misery.

Quote:What are you not understanding? The same person who weighed and presented Jokers measurements also presented Mangos. You know, the one who provided actual capture dates and corresponding body measurements and weighing protocols.  
Nice try though

Why don't you share everything about 'Mango' instead of an "about X-"weight. And give me "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of outlier male Lopez. Those are your own criteria so you should be able to right?

Quote:Literally the Tanzanian Leopard hanging from the scale is a FB trophy hunter post. The weight claims mean nothing as they will load the cats with weights or have faulty scales.

I had a sneaky suspicion you were talking about that male. I actually received it from a professional hunter active in Central African Republic. He got it directly from a client in Tanzania. He's actually going to Masailand after the current season. The only reason I shared it is because of the scale which 'verifies' the weight. I know it's not 100% certain this weight is accurate but doesn't his size and full belly make it somewhat believable?

Quote:Of course it does if they're actively updating a table or else you're left with errors like what happened with the persian table. The fact that you don't seem to understand this or acknowledge it says a lot. 

Lopez' being added twice isn't the only error. I have more remarks which I already addressed but I'm still waiting for answers. Feel free to PM me when you have some answers since it's off-topic here.

Quote:Which weighing was he there for? The 115kg? The 98kg? The about 100kg? The 95kg? Or maybe it has to do with the fact that he doesn't have the measurements or capture data and needs to be told what publication they are from? 
Once again, the amount of excuses you try and make for the Jaguar table on being invalid while accepting weights without any actual data or proof for persian leopards is astounding. 

Well you doubted his presence overall despite him appearing in almost every photo. He's a wildlife veterinarian which makes me assume he was there almost the whole time since he's involved in rescuing the cat. The 2014 study mentioned the exceptional male's weight with Iman Memarian as the source (i.e. personal communication). I contacted him and he said the same thing to me. You and AndresVida did too and again received the same information. Now there's an offical report where the decision or proposal is made to euthanize the cat, meaning nothing life-saving can be done. At this point he weighed 95kg.

You questioning the official report signed by Memarian and two more professors with no reason is what I call astounding.

Quote:I'm not sure you know what 2nd hand means?
Van Neer wasn't present during the capture of these cats. They are by definition 2nd hand *belonged to someone else*

Again, they measured the skulls themselves . They borrowed the skulls from two Belgian museums who did not measure them. The measurements are therefore from a first-hand source.

Quote:You do realise the proof is right there in front of you, backing Iman Memarian's claims (hint: report).

I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding post mortem reports but in this case we're dealing with a live cat although they were about to put it out of its misery.

Lets simplify, you are making assumptions based off a report that presents no real verification of multiple weights claimed. 

Quote:Why don't you share everything about 'Mango' instead of an "about X-"weight. And give me "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of outlier male Lopez. Those are your own criteria so you should be able to right?

Why? So you can avoid the proof and go back to some ridiculous argument involving the Tables validity that holds no water. 

Quote:I  had a sneaky suspicion you were talking about that male. I actually received it from a professional hunter active in Central African Republic. He got it directly from a client in Tanzania. He's actually going to Masailand after the current season. The only reason I shared it is because of the scale which 'verifies' the weight. I know it's not 100% certain this weight is accurate but doesn't his size and full belly make it somewhat believable?

A professional Hunter got it 2nd hand from a trophy client in a trophy hunting reserve? 
And you obviously don't know what you're talking about with regards to "masailand"
Is he talking about a Lodge in Arusha or the private hunting company?  
"Masai Land" is anywhere Masai live and that would be throughout Tanzania and neighboring countries I'm sure. 
And the scale verifies nothing, trophy hunters will hide beef and weights in their catches to exaggerate the weights, you see this in fishing as well. Hence why SCI doesn't record weights because they can be skewed. 
Lastly you comparing a private trophy hunters claim to a verified weight from the biologist involved is a joke.

Quote:Lopez' being added twice isn't the only error. I have more remarks which I already addressed but I'm still waiting for answers. Feel free to PM me when you have some answers since it's off-topic here.

Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Your interpretations mean little since you and her had numerous debates over the table. 
The table as it stands is by far the most in depth of its kind, almost all of the weights come from first hand sources. The fact that you try and deny that is on you but it's wrong.

Quote:Well you doubted his presence overall despite him appearing in almost every photo. He's a wildlife veterinarian which makes me assume he was there almost the whole time since he's involved in rescuing the cat. The 2014 study mentioned the exceptional male's weight with Iman Memarian as the source (i.e. personal communication). I contacted him and he said the same thing to me. You and AndresVida did too and again received the same information. Now there's an offical report where the decision or proposal is made to euthanize the cat, meaning nothing life-saving can be done. At this point he weighed 95kg.

You questioning the official report signed by Memarian and two more professors with no reason is what I call astounding.

How many of those photos are of the cat being weighed?
How many of them involve measurements?

Once again, an "official report" that is left to interpretation doesn't make your weight claims valid.

Quote:Lets simplify, you are making assumptions based off a report that presents no real verification of multiple weights claimed. 

By now I have explained enough about the report. You deem the report not a true verification but merely an assumption. We are seeing things differently here. You deem an Instagram message from a biologist worthy of a verification, but a signed clinical report by a wildlife veterinarian and professors isn't.

Quote:Why? So you can avoid the proof and go back to some ridiculous argument involving the Tables validity that holds no water.

I already told you why; because these are your criteria. You question literally anything about leopard's weights (e.g. scale presence, scale capacity, ...) but it isn't vice versa for jaguars. So I'd like to see "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of jaguar Lopez. Funnily you once said "Unfortunately I haven't been able to get the measurements on the Monster 148kg Jag measured by Hoogesteijin but if we could get them then that would really be interesting." so it's not that you refuse to share it, it's because you can't.

Quote:A professional Hunter got it 2nd hand from a trophy client in a trophy hunting reserve?

Indeed he received it directly from a client.

Quote:And you obviously don't know what you're talking about with regards to "masailand"
Is he talking about a Lodge in Arusha or the private hunting company?
"Masai Land" is anywhere Masai live and that would be throughout Tanzania and neighboring countries I'm sure.

We're not talking about a lodge or a company at all. I know very well what I'm talking about and so does the professional hunter. We're talking about the region Masailand which stretches across southern Kenya and northern Tanzania:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:And the scale verifies nothing, trophy hunters will hide beef and weights in their catches to exaggerate the weights, you see this in fishing as well. Hence why SCI doesn't record weights because they can be skewed.

I know cheating happens in fishing sport like recently a champion fisher got caught adding weight to his fish in the US. But funny that you mention SCI since some time ago you said that "Weights aren't required for score but the few we have from the top 10 list have been sub 90kg." So that's great to hear that the weights are possibly skewed.

Quote:Lastly you comparing a private trophy hunters claim to a verified weight from the biologist involved is a joke.

Wow hold on, it was you who brought up "FB trophy hunter posts/claims", not me. I never compared the two because as I've said before, comparing hunter records to scientific ones is comparing apples to oranges. I suggest you take that back.

Quote:Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Your interpretations mean little since you and her had numerous debates over the table.
The table as it stands is by far the most in depth of its kind, almost all of the weights come from first hand sources. The fact that you try and deny that is on you but it's wrong.

I have some valid remarks on the most recent table so again you can PM me with the explanation or you can forward my remarks to the creator.

Quote:How many of those photos are of the cat being weighed?
How many of them involve measurements?

Once again, an "official report" that is left to interpretation doesn't make your weight claims valid.

You said he was never there just so you can question the weights he provided. You received voice messages from him explaining everything (you should be thankful) and now I present you the clinical report signed by him and two more professors. Still the weight isn't valid and everything is just an assumption. Please help me know the difference between a biologist, a wildlife veterinarian and two professors of surgery and radiology department. Because the words coming from the biologist mean more to you. Why?

Nothing above is worth responding too at this stage.

Except with regards to "masailand"
 
You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

The area you just highlighted is the Masai's legal land. It's where the government allocated their property and agreed to let them still live there amongst the wild, similar to what you see in the states for Native Americans except that was originally their homeland. It's not a park or reserve. Reply