Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences

[Luipaard]

(01-05-2023, 01:07 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-04-2023, 03:42 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(01-03-2023, 09:57 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(12-30-2022, 11:50 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(12-30-2022, 07:15 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(12-29-2022, 11:45 PM)I’m Luipaard Wrote:

(12-29-2022, 11:15 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(12-29-2022, 10:47 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(12-29-2022, 09:50 PM)Pckts Wrote: I'm sure he's seen far more than 100s throughout his life, that's being conservative. 

This discussion reminds of one that we had in the past. It all started with that Instagram post of Dutoit where he's showcasing a Pantanal jaguaress that according to him weighed "as much & if not more than the biggest of male leopards" he has ever seen.

This made you believe that the biggest Pantanal jaguaresses are bigger than the biggest male leopards, wasn't it? The question here is which are these biggest male leopards that Dutoit has seen and from where. I'm really interested in getting to know how this jaguaress compares or possibly even bests the biggest male leopards Dutoit has ever seen.

Have you ever got in touch with him? If so, could you ask him specifically who the biggest male leopards are he has ever seen?

Quote:This made you believe that the biggest Pantanal jaguaresses are bigger than the biggest male leopards, wasn't it?

No the verified measurements of both proved that.

But we both received confirmation of the 115kg Persian male leopard from wildlife veterinarian Iman Memarian? Another member received yet another voice message of Iman Memarian where it is stated that they found him near another dead animal. So he likely feasted on it therefore the 115kg figure is one where he had stomach content. His weight then dropped to 105kg which means he was by then (close to) empty. Later it dropped further to 95-98kg because he refused to eat and had a terrible health condition. Still no jaguaress, Pantanal or not, has ever attained this size of 115kg (full/gorged) or 105kg. The biggest Pantanal jaguaresses aren't bigger than the biggest male leopards.

Can you just ask Marlon Dutoit though?

“It dropped, he dropped” none of that matters. You know where I stand on that. The fact is that female Pantanal Jaguars average more and hit higher weights more often with far less total individuals measured. Which means the odds of seeing a Female Pantanal jag 80-100kg is higher than the odds of seeing a Leopard from any location at the same weight.

I don’t need to ask Marlon, hes mentioned it on 2 different occasions.
Not to mention that he’s seen far fewer Jaguars compared to Leopards and yet he still feels the need to talk about it. He also uses words like “dwarf” which is indicative of a large size discrepancy.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:“It dropped, he dropped” none of that matters. You know where I stand on that.

It matters that a dying Persian leopard still weighed 95kg while weighing 115kg with stomach content. We know the full story behind this Persian male thanks to Iman Memarian who was kind enough to give further information. Do you decide to ignore the other weights because it surpasses the biggest Pantanal jaguaresses? Just wondering because even confirmation from a first-hand source doesn't seem to convince you.

Quote:The fact is that female Pantanal Jaguars average more and hit higher weights more often with far less total individuals measured. Which means the odds of seeing a Female Pantanal jag 80-100kg is higher than the odds of seeing a Leopard from any location at the same weight.

This is totally irrelevant but let's play along. I guarantee you that Persian leopards in northern Iran match Pantanal jaguaresses in terms of average weight. They've already bested them in terms of maximum weight after all. Regarding frequency it's the same story; Persian male leopards average 66kg in Iran. This includes 40-50kg males from the south and the centre. In northern Iran they're supposed to be bigger thus they'll weigh more on average. Scientists all agree on this and have logical explanations for this - e.g. prey abundance and a colder environment. A young male already weighed 64kg so you can be sure that adult males will weigh on average at least 70kg. The odds of seeing an 80-100kg male in this region is much higher than you think.

Quote:I don’t need to ask Marlon, hes mentioned it on 2 different occasions.

I'd like to know which male leopards are the largest he's ever seen. Your 2 different occasions are simple; in one he claims a jaguaress is at least as big as the biggest male leopard he's ever seen, perhaps bigger who knows. That's it. In the other post he's simply boasting the jaguars because he must make sure his followers are interested and amazed. I still don't know to what leopard I must compare this jaguaress with. He's talking about the biggest males he has ever seen, but he hasn't been to Central Africa or Iran so we're not talking about the biggest males in the world. That's a certainty.

Quote:Not to mention that he’s seen far fewer Jaguars compared to Leopards and yet he still feels the need to talk about it. He also uses words like “dwarf” which is indicative of a large size discrepancy.

I told you before; it's a vague statement. That jaguaress isn't going to dwarf every male leopard. She won't even dwarf a male from Masai Mara, for example. But she will dwarf many males from different subspecies. I find it disappointing that he feels the need to exaggerate. Would you be okay if I post a photo of a huge Persian male and claim he dwarfs a jaguaress? Because both related species can dwarf each other as their weights overlap. Again this is only because he has to entertain his followers.

Quote:It matters that a dying Persian leopard still weighed 95kg while weighing 115kg with stomach content. We know the full story behind this Persian male thanks to Iman Memarian who was kind enough to give further information. Do you decide to ignore the other weights because it surpasses the biggest Pantanal jaguaresses? Just wondering because even confirmation from a first-hand source doesn't seem to convince you.

We know the full story yet there's never been weights provided, post mortem info presented or any other confirmation from anyone else involved. On top of all other discrepancies provided and quoted. The outlier weight means little since we have an abundance of verified weights for bot and again the facts are the facts.  

Quote:This is totally irrelevant but let's play along. I guarantee you that Persian leopards in northern Iran match Pantanal jaguaresses in terms of average weight. They've already bested them in terms of maximum weight after all. Regarding frequency it's the same story; Persian male leopards average 66kg in Iran. This includes 40-50kg males from the south and the centre. In northern Iran they're supposed to be bigger thus they'll weigh more on average. Scientists all agree on this and have logical explanations for this - e.g. prey abundance and a colder environment. A young male already weighed 64kg so you can be sure that adult males will weigh on average at least 70kg. The odds of seeing an 80-100kg male in this region is much higher than you think.

Your personal guarantee means nothing. We have average weights from N. Iran and their weights are less. Hence why you have Mohammad Farhadinia specifically stating that Northern males average 70kg as well as the largest weight verified to Kambiz Baradarani as being 88kg.
The end story again was that no matter the population, female Pantanal Jaguars averaged more and did so on a higher %.  You've been proved wrong on this how many times now?

Quote:I'd like to know which male leopards are the largest he's ever seen. Your 2 different occasions are simple; in one he claims a jaguaress is at least as big as the biggest male leopard he's ever seen, perhaps bigger who knows. That's it. In the other post he's simply boasting the jaguars because he must make sure his followers are interested and amazed. I still don't know to what leopard I must compare this jaguaress with. He's talking about the biggest males he has ever seen, but he hasn't been to Central Africa or Iran so we're not talking about the biggest males in the world. That's a certainty.

Sounds like you need to ask him your own questions then. 
Your speculation on why he says what he says is meaningless, don't put your personal feelings towards his comments. 
Lastly, the biggest males throughout E/S Africa equal or surpass any male measured in Iran/C. Africa, whether skull size or body weight, that excuse holds no water.

Quote:We know the full story yet there's never been weights provided, post mortem info presented or any other confirmation from anyone else involved. On top of all other discrepancies provided and quoted.

The study where the 115kg male is mentioned, is a study from Farhadinia himself. The one you later in this post like to refer to. They excluded him from the table but included him in the weight chart. It appears they took the figure serious.

Quote:The outlier weight means little since we have an abundance of verified weights for bot and again the facts are the facts.

Call it what you want; this leopard's figure bests any jaguaress' figure thus male leopards grow bigger than jaguaresses in terms of maximum weight. Indeed, facts are facts.

Quote:Your personal guarantee means nothing. We have average weights from N. Iran and their weights are less.

We do not have average weights of nothern Iranian male leopards. We have some verified ones and the lowest is currently a young male of 64kg. Others are; 66kg, 70kg, 86kg, 88kg & 115kg. I'm sure the higher figures of the chart in the study also originate from nothern Iran but my personal guarantee means nothing.

Quote:Hence why you have Mohammad Farhadinia specifically stating that Northern males average 70kg as well as the largest weight verified to Kambiz Baradarani as being 88kg.

Like I said before, that same Farhadinia decided to include the 115kg male in the weight chart, the leopard being captured in... northern Iran. And I appreciate you and Baradarani's conversation because he gave us additional data including the 88kg male but that doesn't mean it's the maximum weight ever recorded for a male in northern Iran obviously. Prime example is once again the 115kg male.

Quote:The end story again was that no matter the population, female Pantanal Jaguars averaged more and did so on a higher %.  You've been proved wrong on this how many times now?

I still believe Persian male leopards from northern Iran and Pantanal jaguaresses overlap in weight and that they'll weigh equally on average. Again, the biggest male leopard from this region is bigger than the biggest Pantanal jaguaress whether you acknowledge the male's weight or not.
Let's try and compare them again but via skull measurements;

Pantanal jaguaresses measured the following average: 257,6 mm x 172,5 mm (16,93")
Persian male leopards measured the following average: 248 mm x 162 mm (16,14")

The difference isn't that big yet the Persian leopard figures are not 100% certain from males only + they're across the whole country of Iran therefore not from a specific population. Imagine how adult males from northern Iran specifically would score.

Quote:Sounds like you need to ask him your own questions then.
Your speculation on why he says what he says is meaningless, don't put your personal feelings towards his comments.

I will eventually ask him, provided that he answers, and tell you the outcome. Same like I did with Philipp Henschel's statement that Gabonese male leopards look like jaguars. Remember when you and Pantherine/Balam hypothesized that it could be due to similar coat pattern? I then personally asked Henschel and he said it was because of their bulk. Your response? "He's never seen jaguars IRL so he doesn't know what he's talking about". You guys said that about a leading expert from Panthera. I'll never forget that moment + you downgraded him to a mere volunteer. But hey, Marlon Dutoit is an authority right?

Quote:Lastly, the biggest males throughout E/S Africa equal or surpass any male measured in Iran/C. Africa, whether skull size or body weight, that excuse holds no water.

Debatable especially when comparing apples to oranges in your case (scientific data vs hunter records). But even then Dutoit has not seen the biggest male leopards ever. For example, do you really think that because Dutoit has been to Kenya, he's seen the biggest male leopards out there? Dutoit has likely been to Masai Mara like the majority but do you even realise that the biggest Kenyan male leopards are found in Mt. Kenya, Aberdare National Park and/or Lake Nakuru National Park? Male leopards spotted at Mt. Kenya were described as spotted lions by locals to give you an idea:

*This image is copyright of its original author

-https://www.nyayomagazine.com/journal/the-legend-of-the-mountain-leopard

Quote:The study where the 115kg male is mentioned, is a study from Farhadinia himself. The one you later in this post like to refer to. They excluded him from the table but included him in the weight chart. It appears they took the figure serious.

Again, the "study" did not measure any of the leopards. Hence why they are per comm. and Farhadinia specicially mentions which were presented to him, Not to mention, it's also why we have 0 information on the 91kg Leopard. 

Quote:Call it what you want; this leopard's figure bests any jaguaress' figure thus male leopards grow bigger than jaguaresses in terms of maximum weight. Indeed, facts are facts.

Except for average weights or verified maximum weights. 
Like you've been shown multiple times
Female Pantanal Jaguars average higher weights than any leopard sub species on earth. 
They have more individuals who reach 80-100kg and do so with far less of the amount of cats measured compared to Leopards. 
They have the largest "verified" weight I.E. real data presented like measurements from biologist capturer on site or post mortem reports. 

Quote:We do not have average weights of nothern Iranian male leopards. We have some verified ones and the lowest is currently a young male of 64kg. Others are; 66kg, 70kg, 86kg, 88kg & 115kg. I'm sure the higher figures of the chart in the study also originate from nothern Iran but my personal guarantee means nothing.

You literally just quoted Farhadinia and he specifically mentions their average. Your skewed figures mean little compared to his data base. 

Quote:Like I said before, that same Farhadinia decided to include the 115kg male in the weight chart, the leopard being captured in... northern Iran. And I appreciate you and Baradarani's conversation because he gave us additional data including the 88kg male but that doesn't mean it's the maximum weight ever recorded for a male in northern Iran obviously. Prime example is once again the 115kg male.

It also showed that there isn't even a persian Leopard to date that has reached 90kgs from 1st hand experience. 

Quote:I still believe Persian male leopards from northern Iran and Pantanal jaguaresses overlap in weight and that they'll weigh equally on average. Again, the biggest male leopard from this region is bigger than the biggest Pantanal jaguaress whether you acknowledge the male's weight or not.

Let's try and compare them again but via skull measurements;

Overlap, sure but the P. Female Jaguar is the much larger cat on average and at verified maximums. 

Quote:Pantanal jaguaresses measured the following average: 257,6 mm x 172,5 mm (16,93")
Persian male leopards measured the following average: 248 mm x 162 mm (16,14")

The difference isn't that big yet the Persian leopard figures are not 100% certain from males only + they're across the whole country of Iran therefore not from a specific population. Imagine how adult males from northern Iran specifically would score.

Excuses
The same can be said that the female jags may not be all adults. Nor is the protocol the same since some Leopard skulls for sure where measured the Ward/Sci way while the female jags measured the proper way. 

Quote:I will eventually ask him, provided that he answers, and tell you the outcome. Same like I did with Philipp Henschel's statement that Gabonese male leopards look like jaguars. Remember when you and Pantherine/Balam hypothesized that it could be due to similar coat pattern? I then personally asked Henschel and he said it was because of their bulk. Your response? "He's never seen jaguars IRL so he doesn't know what he's talking about". You guys said that about a leading expert from Panthera. I'll never forget that moment + you downgraded him to a mere volunteer. But hey, Marlon Dutoit is an authority right?

Do you even know what you're saying?


You trying to compare Henschel who's never seen a Jaguar or possibly even a Gabonese Leopard to Dutoit who's seen 100s of Leopards from all over africa as well as going to the pantanal numerous times and seeing Jags in person is ridicolous. 
Do you honestly not see the difference? 

Quote:Debatable especially when comparing apples to oranges in your case (scientific data vs hunter records). But even then Dutoit has not seen the biggest male leopards ever. For example, do you really think that because Dutoit has been to Kenya, he's seen the biggest male leopards out there? Dutoit has likely been to Masai Mara like the majority but do you even realise that the biggest Kenyan male leopards are found in Mt. Kenya, Aberdare National Park and/or Lake Nakuru National Park? Male leopards spotted at Mt. Kenya were described as spotted lions by locals to give you an idea:

You really just quoted a "Pro Mountaineer" as a valid source?
Again, because you don't go to these places you don't realize the embellishment you can get from locals, whether translation issues or just lack of 1st hand experience. 

At the end of the day, you twist your criteria to avoid the fact that no matter the location, you have weights, skull size and body measurements that have equaled or surpassed Leopards from the Mountains/C. Africa or Iran. Like the excuse you like to claim about overlapping amongst Persian Males and Female Pantanal Jaguars, you can use the same excuse amongst the African Leopards mentioned.

Quote:Again, the "study" did not measure any of the leopards. Hence why they are per comm. and Farhadinia specicially mentions which were presented to him, Not to mention, it's also why we have 0 information on the 91kg Leopard.

Yes they gathered weights gathered from across the whole country. That selection of weights is as random as it gets. Also, which 91kg male are you talking about?

Quote:Except for average weights or verified maximum weights.
Like you've been shown multiple times
They have the largest "verified" weight I.E. real data presented like measurements from biologist capturer on site or post mortem reports.

How is confirmation from a wildlife veterinarian involved in the rescue of the 115kg male not enough for it to become verified? What more do you want? Jaguar weights from Facebook/Instagram conversations were considered verified in the past?

Quote:Female Pantanal Jaguars average higher weights than any leopard sub species on earth.
They have more individuals who reach 80-100kg and do so with far less of the amount of cats measured compared to Leopards.

That's the current debate isn't it? I believe Persian leopards from northern Iran at least rival Pantanal jaguaresses on average weight and you think otherwise. But how do they have more individuals in that weight range? We have far less weight figures of Persian leopards let alone in northern Iran specifically yet numerous 80-100kg males popped up. The Pantanal jaguar is one of the most studied big cat population ever, it makes sense that data is well present. For Persian leopards we have to rely on dead, wounded or snared ones to get data. In the worst circumstances the Persian leopard proves it can match Pantanal jaguaresses.

Quote:You literally just quoted Farhadinia and he specifically mentions their average. Your skewed figures mean little compared to his data base.

You mean the 66kg global figure? Or where he said to you that a typical male in northern Iran will weigh around 70kg? Also what data base? You said yourself most of his data is gathered so it's not direct data from himself.

Quote:It also showed that there isn't even a persian Leopard to date that has reached 90kgs from 1st hand experience.

Well that's because you don't consider Iman Memarian's messages first-hand despite receiving some yourself. There's three members on this forum who received messages from him of which I couldn't thank him enough. He's a wildlife veterinarian and was there the whole time, how is that not a first-hand experience?

Quote:Overlap, sure but the P. Female Jaguar is the much larger cat on average and at verified maximums.

We're talking about northern Iranian male leopards only. Pantanal jaguaresses are not "much larger" since their average weight differs at max 5kg and the biggest cat will be the Persian leopard. The fact that you don't deem the 115kg verified is subjective because you have the evidence. From a scientific study and from a first-hand source.

Quote:Excuses
The same can be said that the female jags may not be all adults. Nor is the protocol the same since some Leopard skulls for sure where measured the Ward/Sci way while the female jags measured the proper way.

Wait, first you say the Pantanal jaguaresses' skull measurements are incorrect due to possible age merging but at the same time they're measured "the correct way" unlike Persian leopard skulls of which you are sure they measured in a different way? How are those not excuses?

Quote:Do you even know what you're saying?

You trying to compare Henschel who's never seen a Jaguar or possibly even a Gabonese Leopard to Dutoit who's seen 100s of Leopards from all over africa as well as going to the pantanal numerous times and seeing Jags in person is ridicolous. Do you honestly not see the difference?

First of all how do we know Henschel hasn't seen a jaguar? Second, he has seen at least a Gabonese leopard in real life. Credits to Chui for saving this:

""I MAKE AN early start, leaving camp before daybreak. I am in one of the most remote areas I have ever worked – 80 kilometres from the nearest village, deep inside Ivindo National Park. It’s a month since I was dropped off here, alone. My tiny budget didn’t stretch to hiring local field assistants but I do have my satellite phone for emergencies and food provisions for several months. 

Today, I set off for the northernmost tip of my 120-square-kilometre study area towards a spot where I’ve seen groups of naive chimpanzees with no fear of humans – a clear sign they have not been hunted for generations. 

It’s after walking through the forest for two hours that a movement ahead makes me stop in my tracks. Is it a chimp? After recent rain the mist is still hanging over the abandoned logging road I am following and it is hard to see.

It’s a big animal, roughly chimp-sized. Its slow gait doesn’t fit with the lolloping gait of a chimp though. I wait a few seconds, not moving an inch, as it advances. Squinting, I can make out a massive rounded head, swaying lightly left and right, in rhythm with a powerful, muscular stride. 

The mist clears momentarily and, suddenly, I am certain. This is it, the animal I have come to study – a leopard – the apex predator of the African rainforest…

I’ve spent the last month searching for signs of leopards, collecting droppings for dietary analyses and setting up motion-triggered cameras to capture them on film. Now, finally, for the first time I am face-to-face with one! 

The leopard is just 50 metres away. It’s a beautiful adult male, possibly the resident male. It keeps on coming. Why? My excitement turns to anxiety as the leopard stops, drops flat on the old road and presses his body to the ground, his massive head lying low between his front paws. Is this hunting behaviour, or has he just spotted me and is trying to conceal himself? 

Cat and mouse? 

I turn my head to scan the ground for a stick to make me feel less vulnerable. At that moment the animal leaps into the forest to the left side of the road. Now I have a dilemma. Am I the hunted or the hunter? All I know is that there is a very big cat now hiding in the thick vegetation bordering the very road I need to take to reach my destination. 

I have been conducting fieldwork in the Gabonese forest for five years and have seen leopards three times, but only from the safety of a car or when working in teams with other researchers. I know I have been close to them on several occasions, sometimes hearing their deep sawing grunts or observing primates and forest duikers go berserk after clearly having spotted their nemesis. 

This thought reassures me. If the leopards had wanted to harm me, they could have done so on many occasions. I decide to continue down the road, uneasily scanning the vegetation. I pass the spot where I saw the cat disappear – nothing. I walk for another 50 metres, and then something makes me turn around. There he is, a Panthera pardus, calmly sitting on the road, gazing at me!""


Let's be honest here, Philipp Henschel has much different experiences with leopards than Dutoit does. One came face to face with one on foot while another can safely photograph them from a distance. Not to mention their status in the animal world (i.e. big cat expert vs guide/photographer).

Quote:You really just quoted a "Pro Mountaineer" as a valid source? Again, because you don't go to these places you don't realize the embellishment you can get from locals, whether translation issues or just lack of 1st hand experience.

It's not a valid source. It's an anecdote to confirm big leopards in these regions. Hunter records also confirm their large size as well as the popularity in the past because these were popular destinations back when hunting was still allowed.

Quote:At the end of the day, you twist your criteria to avoid the fact that no matter the location, you have weights, skull size and body measurements that have equaled or surpassed Leopards from the Mountains/C. Africa or Iran. Like the excuse you like to claim about overlapping amongst Persian Males and Female Pantanal Jaguars, you can use the same excuse amongst the African Leopards mentioned.

No because you have to compare to apples to apples and not apples to oranges. Scientific data supports the claim that Central African and Persian male leopards are the biggest in the world. You cannot compare scientific data with hunter records. In the male leopard vs Pantanal jaguaress-case; in both cases the leopard surpasses the Pantanal jaguaress. Skull data or body weight that is. No matter if you rely on scientific data or hunter records; the male leopard emerges the victor. Reply