Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences

[Luipaard]

(01-03-2023, 09:57 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(12-30-2022, 11:50 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(12-30-2022, 07:15 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(12-29-2022, 11:45 PM)I’m Luipaard Wrote:

(12-29-2022, 11:15 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(12-29-2022, 10:47 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(12-29-2022, 09:50 PM)Pckts Wrote: I'm sure he's seen far more than 100s throughout his life, that's being conservative. 

This discussion reminds of one that we had in the past. It all started with that Instagram post of Dutoit where he's showcasing a Pantanal jaguaress that according to him weighed "as much & if not more than the biggest of male leopards" he has ever seen.

This made you believe that the biggest Pantanal jaguaresses are bigger than the biggest male leopards, wasn't it? The question here is which are these biggest male leopards that Dutoit has seen and from where. I'm really interested in getting to know how this jaguaress compares or possibly even bests the biggest male leopards Dutoit has ever seen.

Have you ever got in touch with him? If so, could you ask him specifically who the biggest male leopards are he has ever seen?

Quote:This made you believe that the biggest Pantanal jaguaresses are bigger than the biggest male leopards, wasn't it?

No the verified measurements of both proved that.

But we both received confirmation of the 115kg Persian male leopard from wildlife veterinarian Iman Memarian? Another member received yet another voice message of Iman Memarian where it is stated that they found him near another dead animal. So he likely feasted on it therefore the 115kg figure is one where he had stomach content. His weight then dropped to 105kg which means he was by then (close to) empty. Later it dropped further to 95-98kg because he refused to eat and had a terrible health condition. Still no jaguaress, Pantanal or not, has ever attained this size of 115kg (full/gorged) or 105kg. The biggest Pantanal jaguaresses aren't bigger than the biggest male leopards.

Can you just ask Marlon Dutoit though?

“It dropped, he dropped” none of that matters. You know where I stand on that. The fact is that female Pantanal Jaguars average more and hit higher weights more often with far less total individuals measured. Which means the odds of seeing a Female Pantanal jag 80-100kg is higher than the odds of seeing a Leopard from any location at the same weight.

I don’t need to ask Marlon, hes mentioned it on 2 different occasions.
Not to mention that he’s seen far fewer Jaguars compared to Leopards and yet he still feels the need to talk about it. He also uses words like “dwarf” which is indicative of a large size discrepancy.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:“It dropped, he dropped” none of that matters. You know where I stand on that.

It matters that a dying Persian leopard still weighed 95kg while weighing 115kg with stomach content. We know the full story behind this Persian male thanks to Iman Memarian who was kind enough to give further information. Do you decide to ignore the other weights because it surpasses the biggest Pantanal jaguaresses? Just wondering because even confirmation from a first-hand source doesn't seem to convince you.

Quote:The fact is that female Pantanal Jaguars average more and hit higher weights more often with far less total individuals measured. Which means the odds of seeing a Female Pantanal jag 80-100kg is higher than the odds of seeing a Leopard from any location at the same weight.

This is totally irrelevant but let's play along. I guarantee you that Persian leopards in northern Iran match Pantanal jaguaresses in terms of average weight. They've already bested them in terms of maximum weight after all. Regarding frequency it's the same story; Persian male leopards average 66kg in Iran. This includes 40-50kg males from the south and the centre. In northern Iran they're supposed to be bigger thus they'll weigh more on average. Scientists all agree on this and have logical explanations for this - e.g. prey abundance and a colder environment. A young male already weighed 64kg so you can be sure that adult males will weigh on average at least 70kg. The odds of seeing an 80-100kg male in this region is much higher than you think.

Quote:I don’t need to ask Marlon, hes mentioned it on 2 different occasions.

I'd like to know which male leopards are the largest he's ever seen. Your 2 different occasions are simple; in one he claims a jaguaress is at least as big as the biggest male leopard he's ever seen, perhaps bigger who knows. That's it. In the other post he's simply boasting the jaguars because he must make sure his followers are interested and amazed. I still don't know to what leopard I must compare this jaguaress with. He's talking about the biggest males he has ever seen, but he hasn't been to Central Africa or Iran so we're not talking about the biggest males in the world. That's a certainty.

Quote:Not to mention that he’s seen far fewer Jaguars compared to Leopards and yet he still feels the need to talk about it. He also uses words like “dwarf” which is indicative of a large size discrepancy.

I told you before; it's a vague statement. That jaguaress isn't going to dwarf every male leopard. She won't even dwarf a male from Masai Mara, for example. But she will dwarf many males from different subspecies. I find it disappointing that he feels the need to exaggerate. Would you be okay if I post a photo of a huge Persian male and claim he dwarfs a jaguaress? Because both related species can dwarf each other as their weights overlap. Again this is only because he has to entertain his followers.

Quote:It matters that a dying Persian leopard still weighed 95kg while weighing 115kg with stomach content. We know the full story behind this Persian male thanks to Iman Memarian who was kind enough to give further information. Do you decide to ignore the other weights because it surpasses the biggest Pantanal jaguaresses? Just wondering because even confirmation from a first-hand source doesn't seem to convince you.

We know the full story yet there's never been weights provided, post mortem info presented or any other confirmation from anyone else involved. On top of all other discrepancies provided and quoted. The outlier weight means little since we have an abundance of verified weights for bot and again the facts are the facts.  

Quote:This is totally irrelevant but let's play along. I guarantee you that Persian leopards in northern Iran match Pantanal jaguaresses in terms of average weight. They've already bested them in terms of maximum weight after all. Regarding frequency it's the same story; Persian male leopards average 66kg in Iran. This includes 40-50kg males from the south and the centre. In northern Iran they're supposed to be bigger thus they'll weigh more on average. Scientists all agree on this and have logical explanations for this - e.g. prey abundance and a colder environment. A young male already weighed 64kg so you can be sure that adult males will weigh on average at least 70kg. The odds of seeing an 80-100kg male in this region is much higher than you think.

Your personal guarantee means nothing. We have average weights from N. Iran and their weights are less. Hence why you have Mohammad Farhadinia specifically stating that Northern males average 70kg as well as the largest weight verified to Kambiz Baradarani as being 88kg.
The end story again was that no matter the population, female Pantanal Jaguars averaged more and did so on a higher %.  You've been proved wrong on this how many times now?

Quote:I'd like to know which male leopards are the largest he's ever seen. Your 2 different occasions are simple; in one he claims a jaguaress is at least as big as the biggest male leopard he's ever seen, perhaps bigger who knows. That's it. In the other post he's simply boasting the jaguars because he must make sure his followers are interested and amazed. I still don't know to what leopard I must compare this jaguaress with. He's talking about the biggest males he has ever seen, but he hasn't been to Central Africa or Iran so we're not talking about the biggest males in the world. That's a certainty.

Sounds like you need to ask him your own questions then. 
Your speculation on why he says what he says is meaningless, don't put your personal feelings towards his comments. 
Lastly, the biggest males throughout E/S Africa equal or surpass any male measured in Iran/C. Africa, whether skull size or body weight, that excuse holds no water.

Quote:We know the full story yet there's never been weights provided, post mortem info presented or any other confirmation from anyone else involved. On top of all other discrepancies provided and quoted.

The study where the 115kg male is mentioned, is a study from Farhadinia himself. The one you later in this post like to refer to. They excluded him from the table but included him in the weight chart. It appears they took the figure serious.

Quote:The outlier weight means little since we have an abundance of verified weights for bot and again the facts are the facts.

Call it what you want; this leopard's figure bests any jaguaress' figure thus male leopards grow bigger than jaguaresses in terms of maximum weight. Indeed, facts are facts.

Quote:Your personal guarantee means nothing. We have average weights from N. Iran and their weights are less.

We do not have average weights of nothern Iranian male leopards. We have some verified ones and the lowest is currently a young male of 64kg. Others are; 66kg, 70kg, 86kg, 88kg & 115kg. I'm sure the higher figures of the chart in the study also originate from nothern Iran but my personal guarantee means nothing.

Quote:Hence why you have Mohammad Farhadinia specifically stating that Northern males average 70kg as well as the largest weight verified to Kambiz Baradarani as being 88kg.

Like I said before, that same Farhadinia decided to include the 115kg male in the weight chart, the leopard being captured in... northern Iran. And I appreciate you and Baradarani's conversation because he gave us additional data including the 88kg male but that doesn't mean it's the maximum weight ever recorded for a male in northern Iran obviously. Prime example is once again the 115kg male.

Quote:The end story again was that no matter the population, female Pantanal Jaguars averaged more and did so on a higher %.  You've been proved wrong on this how many times now?

I still believe Persian male leopards from northern Iran and Pantanal jaguaresses overlap in weight and that they'll weigh equally on average. Again, the biggest male leopard from this region is bigger than the biggest Pantanal jaguaress whether you acknowledge the male's weight or not.
Let's try and compare them again but via skull measurements;

Pantanal jaguaresses measured the following average: 257,6 mm x 172,5 mm (16,93")
Persian male leopards measured the following average: 248 mm x 162 mm (16,14")

The difference isn't that big yet the Persian leopard figures are not 100% certain from males only + they're across the whole country of Iran therefore not from a specific population. Imagine how adult males from northern Iran specifically would score.

Quote:Sounds like you need to ask him your own questions then.
Your speculation on why he says what he says is meaningless, don't put your personal feelings towards his comments.

I will eventually ask him, provided that he answers, and tell you the outcome. Same like I did with Philipp Henschel's statement that Gabonese male leopards look like jaguars. Remember when you and Pantherine/Balam hypothesized that it could be due to similar coat pattern? I then personally asked Henschel and he said it was because of their bulk. Your response? "He's never seen jaguars IRL so he doesn't know what he's talking about". You guys said that about a leading expert from Panthera. I'll never forget that moment + you downgraded him to a mere volunteer. But hey, Marlon Dutoit is an authority right?

Quote:Lastly, the biggest males throughout E/S Africa equal or surpass any male measured in Iran/C. Africa, whether skull size or body weight, that excuse holds no water.

Debatable especially when comparing apples to oranges in your case (scientific data vs hunter records). But even then Dutoit has not seen the biggest male leopards ever. For example, do you really think that because Dutoit has been to Kenya, he's seen the biggest male leopards out there? Dutoit has likely been to Masai Mara like the majority but do you even realise that the biggest Kenyan male leopards are found in Mt. Kenya, Aberdare National Park and/or Lake Nakuru National Park? Male leopards spotted at Mt. Kenya were described as spotted lions by locals to give you an idea:

*This image is copyright of its original author

-https://www.nyayomagazine.com/journal/the-legend-of-the-mountain-leopard Reply