Size comparisons

[Twico5]

(04-16-2022, 04:29 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(04-16-2022, 07:42 AM)Twico5 Wrote:

(04-16-2022, 02:23 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(04-16-2022, 01:50 AM)Twico5 Wrote:

(04-16-2022, 01:07 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(04-16-2022, 12:00 AM)Twico5 Wrote: Jaguars are heavier in most places where they co-exist, except they co-exist in most of Central and South america where there are more freshwater ecosystems than anywhere else and where there are more freshwater fish and crocodillian species (the very prey jaguars have adapted to hunt) than anywhere else on earth. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

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*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Look at the red areas, these are the regions in which jaguars tend to be really large and pumas, smaller than jaguars. In western mexico there are 0 crocodillian species and very few freshwater ecosystems, it is dry and arid and both jaguars and pumas are hunting the same animals. Here are some hindfoot sizes of jaguars and pumas from there:

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*This image is copyright of its original author
Western mexico isnt the only region in which jaguars and pumas are hunting the same prey. I posted a study a while back that had weights of pumas killed in the Pampas region of argentinea. If i recall correctly there were 5 weights given and two of these weights were 107kg and 110kg. The average was over 90 kilograms for all male pumas included in the study. Now, its possible that jaguars here, or in other parts of northern argentinea have a similar or higher average weight. But considering that pumas have to be quite a bit taller and longer than jaguars in order to be the same weight, do you think these jaguars would appear to be bigger in size? No, they wouldn’t. Both jaguars and pumas in northern Argentinea primarily hunt domestic animals such as cattle, horses, sheep. The pantanal on the other hand shouldnt even be brought up anymore if you want to fairly compare jaguar and puma sizes. It is home to around 10 million yacare caiman. There are far less capybara, deer and whatever else pumas are hunting here. The pantanal is also home to some of largest cattle herds in the entire South America. Not to mention pumas here are rare. Yet in the size comparison posted above we see a female puma being close in height to a big male jaguar. All of this should prove that jaguars arent simply larger on their own. Also, regarding interactions between the two species, both have a mutual avoidance of each other.

Completelly dissagree. Water sources has noting to do with the size, is the prey base available what influence the size of these cats. Other thing, paw prints are not a good predictor as we don't know which specific variations may be between the species, after all they are not just "cats" but completelly different species, so the paw size may have another explanation.

About the weights of 107 and 110 kg for pumas, I doubt them for the moment and I will like to see the sources of those figures. The heaviest puma reliably recorded was of 105 kg (Hornocker & Negri, 2010), so those figures should be exceptional, but I will like to check its reliability first.

Definitelly, in every study jaguars are significavely heavier than pumas, the bodies are more massive and the skulls are bigger, there is no comparison. 

And I support Pckts on this, jaguar dominate over pumas, no such thing as avoidance and also here in Guatemala pumas are smaller than jaguars and there is a case of a jaguar killing a puma in Belice.

Finally, from Sunquist & Sunquist (2002):

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*This image is copyright of its original author

This studies clearly shows that pumas are smaller than jaguars.

Ofc its due to prey base. My point was that freshwater environments in south and central america have plenty of semi aquatic and reptillian prey. 

If you were to remove venezuela and pantanal from those samples the weight for male jags and male pumas would be the same (both around ~65kg). The Venezuelan and pantanal samples are both from floodplain areas. Cattle ranch distribution map: 

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Notice how the Llanos and pantanal regions especially have the highest densities. Again these are also jaguar-filled floodplain regions with tons of reptillian and semi-aquatic prey. 

Without the pantanal and llanos, cougars are the same size on average and max. 

Puma weights from proceedings of the Washington academy of sciences volume 3: 

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This is the same as the amazon average for male jags which btw is a really high average weight for amazonian jaguars. Also, in the screenshots you posted the lowest weight for male pumas and male jags was the same. So now tell me, is there really that much of a size difference? Under the same conditions would a jaguar be larger than a puma? 

I dont have the pampas sample on me but i will try to find it now

Quote:Without the pantanal and llanos, cougars are the same size on average and max. 

Chaco, Cerrado and Atlantic Forest Jaguars will all significantly outsize Pumas as well. 

Amazon Jaguars are sloth eaters, they are a much smaller variety. They suffer much more from floods and spend much of their lives in trees, it's just about the prey and habitat they live in. The only Jaguars smaller than them are the Caatinga ones.

It's pretty simple, when both animals are at their apex, the Jaguar is the much larger cat. If a habitat is geared towards one more than the other than that one should do better but in places where they both live, the Jaguar is going to be the superior cat.

For obvious reasons pumas suffer from amazonic floods more than jaguars do. Sloths are a large prey animal for jaguars btw. It is no surprise why pumas here are small. Here are some weights of jaguars from parts of the amazon that flood often: 

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Some forests in the amazon stay flooded for up to 4 months each year. Obviously the pumas are suffering more during these months as they arent as specialized in hunting semi-aquatic animals as jaguars are. Jaguars are the stronger cat, idk why youre acting like i said pumas were stronger or better hunters. But see in most of the amazon male pumas are also weighing around 50-60kg. So it really to me seems like were making the size difference between these two cats out to be much more than it is actually is only because in a few regions jags are significantly heavier than pumas. When the vice versa is also common. 

In a place where both predators are equally as specialized to the same prey base and enviroment there wouldnt be a significant difference in size between the two species.

Sloths are not large prey, I’m not sure what you’re considering Large. The point of the Amazon was to say why they’re smaller there in comparison. Regardless of where they are, there is only one place where Puma and Jaguar coexist that they are the same size. Everywhere else the Jaguar surpasses the Puma and that is with many different prey items available. 


Because your claims seem to bounce from one to another I’m not sure what you’re trying to say but to clear.

Let’s make it simple.

What happens when a cougar gets the best conditions and top of the food chain? *Patagonia* 
They reach around 100kg max.

What happens when the Jaguar gets the same?
They reach 140kg+

Amazonian Jaguars vary in size. Most are large and here is their prey base: 

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Now of course they don’t have 10 million caiman to prey on and nor do they have huge cattle herds grazing in their territories but they do have tons of reptilian prey. These are animals cougars don’t typically hunt.

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“Sloths”. Throughout most of the Amazon they’re preying on large reptiles

Nw Mexico isn’t the only place where they’re the same size. Peru: 

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Pumas in Patagonia are eating cape hares

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If they’re large here then it would only be because of the couple thousand guanacos here as opposed to the many reasons why pantanal Jaguars reach enourmous sizes. Millions of yacare caiman, 3000 cattle ranches in the region, 0 competition, everything else is also on the roster as prey vs puma population that has only 1 wild prey animal over 5kg. It’s true that Patagonian pumas are apex predators, but according to what you’ve been saying about Jaguars being dominant over pumas, jags would be dominant in every part of their range as well. But they’re small in many places. Guess what? Jaguars are apex predators in the cerrado as well, yet you decide to remind me that there are 140kg pantanal Jaguars! Why aren’t we comparing Amazon jag and Patagonian puma sizes? Both are apexes right? Why is it that one apex niche population is smaller than another apex niche population? I think it might have to do with the prey base that the pantanal has! Reply