Amur Tigers

[GreenGrolar]

(03-25-2022, 06:03 PM)Apex Titan Wrote:

(03-25-2022, 01:56 PM)LandSeaLion Wrote:

(03-24-2022, 07:15 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: I'm talking about this account, mentioned by biologist Kucherenko, of a tigress that stalked and killed a big male brown bear much larger than herself. This incident was eye-witnessed by his colleague:

"Of course, all my attention was riveted by the tiger. It was a female. Small, with salted nipples. I was surprised at her courage, and even self-confidence - the bear was much larger in size and had remarkable strength. It was later that I learned the reason for her courage and decisiveness: they were built on a strict calculation of their actions, surprise attack, agility and swiftness."

"The tigress, of course, took care of her life for the children more than for herself, and if she decided to attack the bear, to know, there were good reasons for this and confidence in victory."

"She sneaked up exactly like a domestic cat: slowly, with fading, silently moving her paws. The tigress did not take her yellow burning eyes off the victim and definitely calculated her every step towards the approach to the distance of the decisive jump." ...

"There were only two tiger leaps left for the unsuspecting bear, but the striped one for some reason hesitated. And I realized that she built her calculations on a single jump. She either waited for the prey to inadvertently approach her, or was looking for a convenient moment in order to approach herself. A minute passed, another stretched. I forgot about the retreat because of the stress, although I kept my gun in constant readiness. And here it is, the right moment!  When the bear buried its head in the dug hole, the tigress jumped onto another boulder some five meters away from the "beetle" who had lost all caution."

"She jumped on him from that boulder. It jumped with such a deafening roar that I completely died out. However, I clearly saw her in a jump - with her mouth wide open, her front paws spread with her claws extended In that tiny fraction of a second, the bear could only turn around and rise, but he did not have time to scatter his paws in order to embrace the enemy, as it is customary in such circumstances in a bear race. I think that it was on all this that the tiger jump was built. The predator with a strong swing of its clawed paws slashed the victim from top to bottom along its open belly, immediately dived with its head between the enemy's hind legs to its very shoulders and with a sharp jerk threw the brown hulk through itself, by its tail ... that this beast is capable of throwing so much weight twice its own." ...

*This image is copyright of its original author

"The bear roared and rolled, more and more entangling itself with blue guts. From horror and pain, at first he did not even think to find his enemy and take revenge, which is also inherent in the bear's nature from birth. But in his last breath, he found the tigress with his eyes and crawled towards her, but crawled already with dying fading. She was lying on a boulder, whipping herself with her tail, in full readiness for another jump, the final one. However, he was not needed."

"The tigress approached her prey already at dusk. There was such silence that I could hardly breathe, heard the beat of my heart and caught every step of the amba on a dry leaf. And I couldn't decide what to do. I knew that she would spot me at the first movement, and that it would have to go around that place in a considerable circle. Moreover, the tigress was agitated and very dangerous."

https://www.litmir.me/br/?b=170047&p=33


About this book:

The author of the book is a well-known Far Eastern writer, scientist, hunting biologist, candidate of biological sciences. For many years he studied the ecology of the tiger. The stories about meetings with the lord of the Ussuri taiga, written on the basis of factual material, allow us to learn a lot about the habits and lifestyle of a rare Red Book predator. In short stories - and pride for the magnificent beast, and compassion for his misfortunes. The author urges readers, all residents of the Amur and Primorye Territories, to respect the rights of the animal to its tiger house, to be responsible for the survival of the Amur tiger on our planet.

https://www.labirint.ru/books/475154/

https://www.ozon.ru/product/vstrechi-s-a...j7-xVb8LeQ

I don’t know if that’s just a dodgy translation but…slashing a big male brown bear from head to toe with a paw stroke to make its guts spill out, then rolling between the bear’s legs, grabbing it by the tail and hurling it through the air? I’ve got to admit, that description sounds…very fantastical. Like something out of a movie. I couldn’t help but be reminded of this!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV1bjOKyTnA&t=2m46s

My curiosity was piqued, so I read a bit more of the book…thank you for posting the link (I can’t read Russian, but I am semi-fluent in Google Translate)! To add some much-needed context, it appears this particular tale was not a description from a colleague/fellow scientist. It was part of a retelling of a story by a man called Andrei Efremovich, a commercial hunter at whose lodge the author spent some time.

Quote:“It is rare for anyone to see the Amur tiger. And not only because his dwellings are dense to impenetrability. Possessing a sensitive ear and sharp eyesight, he detects a person much earlier and acts according to his own understanding. Turns aside or freezes, watching his eternal enemy ... No, he is not afraid of him, but is more curious or plotting something. The painfully bitter experience of communicating with people is now in the tiger's subconscious.

Now! In the old years, the amba behaved in the Ussuri taiga much more imposingly and did not feel respect for the person. That is why I always listened with interest to the stories of old experienced taiga dwellers about past meetings with a tiger, finding out their attitude towards this predator.

Once I inadvertently got stuck in the hut of a fisherman with a long experience in the Ussuri wilderness itself, and after that, for ten years now, I thank fate for that taiga meeting.

Andrei Efremovich is a hereditary hunter. His grandfather came here, to the end of the world, passing half of Europe and all of Siberia. Then he rafted along the Amur, went up in boats along the Ussuri and Bikin, to do, in the end, free arable farming. But the peasantry did not succeed in prosperity: the lands turned out to be the wrong ones, the plantings got wet or burned out, crops were destroyed by every animal - from a chipmunk to a wild boar and a bear. Willy-nilly, he had to turn to the taiga crafts.

Andrey Efremovich told me a lot, but most of all I was interested in his stories about encounters with a tiger. If only because he had a hundred times fewer of them than face-to-face skirmishes with bears. Me too. Exactly like the others who had a chance to walk around the local taiga to their heart's content.

Imagine: a winter night, a blackened hunting lodge, lonely from time, sun and rain, lost in the mountains of the little-traveled Sikhote-Alin. It is cramped, but warm and cozy, the tin stove in the corner creaks peacefully from the heat. It smells of porridge, borscht, drying cloth and something else ... And on the plank beds are two people tired during the day, but not yet asleep. One of them quietly and thoughtfully pulls the thread of memories, while the other listens attentively, without interrupting, without even asking again. And such were floating on the hut top of the head ...”

After witnessing the tiger and bear altercation, he apparently shot the tigress as a trophy, then found her cubs and sold them for profit to a zoo:

Quote:“How many hunters during the years of that merciless war of tigers and people this fierce beast robbed, ruined and even crushed! How many dogs did he gobble up at a time when, for a hunter, she meant the same as a horse for a peasant in suffering ... Just ask a commercial hunter, whom he will shoot first, if, suppose, he sees a tiger, a deer and a wild boar on his site at once? Even if it's a bear. And everyone will answer: if in truth - striped, of course!

And that's why I took that tigress at gunpoint that late evening. And then I had two good trophies for one shot, and even a kilometer from housing. Our brother rarely succeeds in such a luck, and only a person who does not know the essence of our life can envy me or the same poor fellow ... Everything went into business, nothing was lost, because the nights came already cold, with frost ... I corrected my household, my wife and the elderly I put on a new one, bought a bicycle for my son, and an excellent tee for myself.

So you try to understand me and do not judge strictly. And then I was not a poacher, and now I don’t consider myself one ... Yes, I almost forgot. Tiger cubs, three months old, my neighbor and I found and caught in five days, retreated and profitably sold to the zoo. And when there were no tigers at all in my lands, it was much calmer to trade and more prey ...”

The same hunter relayed another story about how he was once, as a young man, caught in the middle of a fight with two male tigers while an amorous female in heat flirted with him. When his father arrived and shot the female, he apparently grabbed the gun from him and bum-rushed the two male tigers at close range to kill them both:

Quote:“Passions and fears ran high. One animal calmly, as if not a man in front of him, walked along the spit in my direction about ten meters, while glancing at me indifferently, and the other two began to fight. The closest to me turned to the fighters and lay down, watching with interest their occupation. And then I guessed that I was at a tiger's wedding, and two grooms were competing for one bride at once.

It was only later that I began to recall wedding pictures and ceremonies, then I was all in the grip of fear. At some moment, both "gentleman" and "lady", busy with their problems, found themselves at the base of the upper edge of the spit, where the forest began, and I saw an opportunity to slip away along the lower. But as soon as I walked there, trying not to make noise with pebbles, the tigress blocked my way with several jumps, and, moreover, the bitch fell on her front paws and wagged her tail, seemingly inviting me to joke. Of course, I had no time for jokes, and I retreated to my starting position.

And the rivals clashed more and more angrily. "Yes, even if only lifted one another to death!" - I prayed to God. But the Lord, apparently, thought with irony: "All of you remember me only when he is firmly pressed, otherwise everything is like a mother of God ..." And he did not answer my prayer ... The roar stood throughout the taiga and up to the sky. The thugs opened their mouths at full width, waving their paws with their claws out. But there was no blood, because they did not fight seriously, with ordinary cuffs and slaps in the face. There were such moments that it was easy to crush an opponent - close your jaws on the enemy's neck, which appeared in front of the muzzle - and it would not last long. But no ...

They fought, scattered once, and twice, and again. And it happened that this huge, terrible ball of fighters would roll up to me for several meters, scattering pebbles, and the only thing left for me was to wander into the water. And I, completely lost my head from fear, earnestly pray to God to save me. He swore to thank him with all his life with faith and prayers, promised to study and read the Bible all the time, to acquire icons ... And at the same time he was baptized, looking to heaven.

And God rescued me from that trouble ... Although, maybe my father turned out to be my God, I don't know ... This is a special topic of conversation - about God. Difficult ... Let me tell you about your unexpected salvation.

The night fell quiet and dewy. A worried dad with a lantern went to look for me, then he heard a distant tiger roar and, guessing everything at once, bravely moved THERE. And amid the thunder of battles, he went out to the very edge of the forest at the base of that almost fatal spit. He saw the tigress a dozen meters away from him, she was sitting with her back to him, he put her first and put it down. And the inflamed suitors were so carried away by their problems that they either did not hear the shot, or did not pay attention to it. I was next to my father in some thirty seconds after the shot ... I was all thrashing, I was shedding tears and could not utter a word. He said: "Let's get out of here, out of harm's way ..." At this I shook my head negatively, took the rifle from my father and, maddened, pounced on the adversaries ... I shot at them point-blank and regretted that they had run out of cartridges. And after this retaliation he collapsed on the cobblestone."

A completely reliable narration? Well…I’ll leave that up to you. Personally I suspect that these particular accounts are rather more colourful than reality, and should probably be read in the same way that they were framed in the book itself - as stories told by an acquaintance on a cold winter’s night by the fireside.

(I’m not actually denying that a tiger could ambush and kill a bear, incidentally. I also think these stories are fascinating in the sense that they give an insight into how strongly the hunter/trapper living in the area feels about tigers (though also unpleasant to read, given that he describes hating and killing them mercilessly), which is why they’re included in the book. I just wouldn’t place as much credibility in them as I would a scientific report or paper!)

You made some good points and I see where your coming from. However, its also possible that the hunter Andrei Efremovich did actually witness this event, but also exaggerated some details about it. I've seen people do this many times, they'll witness something but exaggerate the story to some extent.

Its likely he did witness a tigress attack and kill an adult male brown bear, but probably embellished some of the details of the way the tigress killed the bear. 

As the description of the book states, its based on factual material, not false stories. Kucherenko, was a renowned Russian biologist, scientist & tiger ecologist, and the fact that he mentioned this specific account in his book, means that he trusted the eye-witness (who he knew very well) and what he witnessed, which also means that Kucherenko didn't doubt a tigress's ability and capabilities of killing a large male brown bear much larger than herself.

But I agree, accounts from hunters are not as reliable as a scientific report or paper. But it also doesn't mean it didn't happen. Keep in mind, hunters are in the taiga every day and all year round, they spend time in the forests more than any biologist or researcher does, so they sometimes experience, observe and witness things that no scientific expert ever does.

Nice account. It seems to be similar to Sysoev's book called AMBA or the Taiga.

*This image is copyright of its original author

He did talk about two male bears killing male tigers. Some consider it to be fictional yet others consider it to be based on eyewitness.

His book was also a story but it seems to be included in the 12 kills as below:

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https://drive.google.com/file/d/10afDwfyao6HMoeBOGhQw4RRkapammvOz/view

If we deny one of the 12 cases of the bear's killing tigers, then the other killings should also be denied.

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10afDwfyao6HMoeBOGhQw4RRkapammvOz/view

Here it says tiger's aggression towards bears is benificial to the population of the latter, since it promotes the "culling" of the weakest individuals.

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://vra4nolptzlptdrd2r7prhlabm-adwhj77lcyoafdy-www-amur-info.translate.goog/news/2010/11/26/50626

Here is another article which calls a 150 kg bear very large. I agree Chamlid looks huge though. Hoping that one day there will be specific weighing for him.

Here is one of Syseov's opinion:

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True tigers (like Dale and Misha etc) do hunt bears during summer and autumn as well and some prefer bears yet the general population of tigers seem to prefer ungulates. 

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[b]Siberian tiger prey choices:

From left to right - Manchurian wapiti - Wild boar - Sika deer - Siberian roe deer - Bear -
Other.[/b]

Some tigers have learn to hunt bears yet the account of tigers hunting large brown bears twice their weight seem to be refuted by STP. To be fair, there seems to be no account of bear killing tigers for 30 years either.

Regarding your screenshot about the 605 pound tiger, the last sentence says as much as a fully grown male tiger. Most male brown bears outweigh most male tigers but I think a 605 pound male tiger is rather impressive.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Baikov 1925

The original translation:
"Маньчжурский тигр. Н.А. Байков. Харбин, 1925 г."



Особенно крупные тигры справляются и с медведем почти одного с ним веса. Для этого хищник выслеживает мишку и делает засаду обыкновенно на скале или в буреломе с подветренной стороны. Беспечный медведь, ничего не подозревая, медленно идет мимо засады, и тигр бросается на него сверху, хватает когтями одной лапы под подбородок, другой за горло и перекусывает шейные позвонки. Иногда медведь во-время замечает опасность, и тогда, если чувствует себя не в силах бороться с врагом, спасается на ближайшее дерево, куда тигр последовать за ним не может, не умея лазить по деревьям. Случается, что тигр терпеливо ожидает под деревом, пока медведю не надоест сидеть на дереве, и он не спустится вниз, но чаще в таких случаях тигр делает вид, что уходит, а сам следит за медведем, когда тот спустится с дерева, и устраивает ему снова засаду. Словом, ни одно животное в тайге Маньчжурии не гарантировано от нападения страшного хищника, начиная с медведя и кончая зайцем. Человек гарантирован менее всех, как самый беззащитный, если, конечно, он не имеет при себе солидного оружия в виде современной малокалиберной винтовки или штуцера-экспресс.




www.sixote-alin.ru/books/baikov/h1.html

A different* translation (credited to Warsaw):

"A rather big tiger would defeat a bear of almost the same weight. For this purpose, the predator tracks down the bear and makes an ambush, ordinarily on a rock or in wind-fallen trees, taking the side against the wind. Carelessly a bear slowly goes by an ambush, suspecting nothing, and the tiger rushes out on it from above, its one paw claws under the bear's chin, the other paw at the throat, and the tiger bites through the neck vertebrae. Sometimes the bear notices the danger in time, and not feeling able to struggle with this enemy, it escapes into the nearest tree, where the tiger cannot follow, being unable to climb the trees. It is possible that the tiger would patiently wait under the tree, till the bear is tired out of sitting in the tree and then it comes down, but more often in such cases the tiger would pretend to be leaving the place, whereas it would hide in a new ambush and watch the bear come down. In a word, there is no animal in the Manchurian taiga guaranteed against attack of the terrible predator, starting from the bear and finishing with the hare. The man is guaranteed less than others, as most defenseless, of course, if he is not armed with a good weapon such as a modern small caliber rifle or a carbine"


www.sixote-alin.ru/books/baikov/he1.html

It seems to confirm the account of tiger's preying on bears their own weight. According to Warsaw, the 2nd translation seems to be more credible (I don't know how to read Russian).


I am aware that Sergey Aramilev said a male Ussuri brown bear has a slight chance against a female tigress and a small male. However,

he also states that "In general, the tiger tries not to encounter only a person and a large individual brown bear. Everyone else in the forest becomes prey for him" (original Russian translation is below).

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http://www.businesspress.ru/newspaper/article_mId_43_aId_443089.html

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=9xskAAAAMAAJ&q=The+tiger+will+not+attack+the+man+or+large+bear+outside+of+his+territory&dq=The+tiger+will+not+attack+the+man+or+large+bear+outside+of+his+territory&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y

Tigers probably are a lot more aggressive in their territory and a lot more cautious outside their territory like leopards and other territorial big cats are.

*This image is copyright of its original author

From Siberian tiger center above.

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Most bears killed seems to be during their active period. However, consumption doesn't necessarily mean predation either.

Regarding the 20 minute fight between a male amur tiger and female Ussuri brown bear. Here it is below:






It says that the bear was female and that gave tough fight to the tiger (note the tiger crawled back part). Here's the proof.

“A strong tiger protects its prey from a brown bear. Here is one such case observed by an amateur hunter V.N. Tvilinev on a September day. Having climbed the ridge of a hill covered with a rare oak tree, about 150 meters away he saw a brown bear with a first-year cub. She left upon a clearing where she found a roe deer eaten by someone and began to eat it. Suddenly the bear stood abruptly on her hind legs, turning her whole body to the side. A large tiger came out of the thicket of hazel, where it was looking, rushing with a roar to the bear. Both animals spun in a fierce fight, crushing one another. The tiger was more often upstairs. About 20 minutes later the bear was finished. The tiger crawled back into the undergrowth. The little bear who was not far away during the fight went to the motionless mother, sniffed her, lay down beside her.”





Tigers and other Predators - G.F Gorokhov

https://carnivora.net/siberian-tiger-v-ussuri-brown-bear-t8294-s405.html#p111901

Russian biologist M. Krechmar's opinion:

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Still most male brown bears seem to outweigh a male tiger on average. Most brown bears the same weight as Siberian tigers are female and sub adult. More:

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https://books.google.com.au/books?id=UCoWAQAAMAAJ&q=Amur+tigers+have+no+natural+enemies+but+it+is+dangerous+for+them+to+tackle+old+wild+boars+or+adult+male+brown+bear++which+are+likely+to+come+offbest+in+such+encounters.&dq=Amur+tigers+have+no+natural+enemies+but+it+is+dangerous+for+them+to+tackle+old+wild+boars+or+adult+male+brown+bear++which+are+likely+to+come+offbest+in+such+encounters.&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&redir_esc=y

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=1VNuzQEACAAJ&dq=bears+of+the+world&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwirneq0ytfzAhWSOewKHTalDl4Q6AF6BAgEEAM

It's fair to say most of the tigers rob are female. A tigress with cubs also means more meat to steal. Reply