Amur Tigers

[GreenGrolar]

(03-08-2022, 06:14 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: @GreenGrolar 

Quote:No mention on how large the brown bear is. Ussuri brown bear's weigh around 600 pounds on average if we count these which are nine years old and above. 400 to 600kg is rare just as a 300kg siberian tiger is also rare.

Anyway an old emaciated brown bear can also be considered large:

In Arkhara settlement at 7:30 in the morning a bear came out to secondary school No. 1. The giant two-meter predator was immediately noticed by the locals and called the police. The police quickly arrived at the scene and shot the bear.

Yes, but the account I posted doesn't mention, let alone even indicate that the huge brown bear hunted and attacked by the tiger, was a "old, emaciated brown bear". In fact, I'm sure that if the bear was an old emaciated large brown bear, the tiger would have certainly killed it, but the fact that the huge bear was able to successfully repel the attack of the tiger, indicates that it was a very large healthy brown bear.

An emaciated old bear would be too weak and frail to fight off a tiger.

Quote:Even a female bear can be called big:

I know, but the brown bear the tiger hunted wasn't called "big" it was called a "HUGE BROWN BEAR", which strongly suggests that it was a massive male brown bear. Its rare to find a huge female brown bear and this brown bear was described as being huge in size, which clearly indicates that it was a very large male bear hunted.

There's a clear difference between being "large" and being "huge" in size. A huge brown bear could be way bigger than a large brown bear. In fact, even the term "large brown bear" usually refers to big male bears.

Quote:BART SCHLEYER, SCIENTIST AND HUNTER :

"Some older tigers would also stalk and kill brown bears, which were easier to catch than elk. Following tigers with radio locators, Bart could read these stories in the snow. The tigers usually just walked the bears down from behind. The big cats had killer instincts and usually about a hundred pound weight advantage on the bears. They would go straight for the neck and sever the spine at the base of the skull. Every once in a while the trampled snow would tell of a furious fight, which always ended with a dead bear"

OK, lets clear up this whole Bart Schleyer account. It seems that some bear posters want to focus on and cherry-pick ONE account from just ONE BIOLOGIST, while ignoring all the other observations and accounts from many other reputable experts (far more experienced than Bart Schleyer) and biologists, which prove that tigers hunt and kill brown bears around their own size and weight, and even heavier bears.

Bart Schleyer was an American hunter, wildlife researcher & passionate outdoorsmen who worked with the Siberian Tiger Project for nine years in the Sikhote Alin Biosphere Reserve. Schleyer is just one of many different researchers who have observed many cases of tiger predation on brown bears in various regions of the Russian Far East. You can't just cherry-pick and focus on the observations of just ONE biologist and ignore the rest from other far more experienced Russian researchers and biologists, and then base your conclusion off that. Thats a very unreliable method.

Notice, Schleyer observed tigers hunting brown bears in the SNOW (By winter snow tracking), not the snow-free period (summer & early-mid autumn) when tigers primarily hunt and kill brown bears. The large adult female brown bears killed by the tiger 'Dale' were hunted in the summer period i.e. snow-free period. Another male tiger in the summer of August, 2001 hunted and killed a large mature female brown bear of similar-size weighing 150-200 kg. (After a prolonged battle)

So tigers primarily hunt adult brown bears in the summer period, which was confirmed by the STP project biologists, as well as other researchers and biologists. Schleyers observations never happened during the summer, when tigers mainly hunt bears and bears are in peak weight and condition, they happened in the winter, so his account is far from presenting a complete picture of tiger predation on brown bears.

Schleyer stated that the tigers "usually" had a 100 pound weight advantage on the bears, but not always. There's a difference. "Every once and a while the trampled snow would tell of a furious fight, which always ended with a dead bear." This statement indicates that the bears were probably too large to kill swiftly, hence the fierce fights. Note, the tiger always killed the bear. Not one bear escaped death.

Tkachenko, a far more experienced authority and expert regarding the predatory behaviour and ecology of Amur tigers, observed and reported that when tigers hunt brown bears and black bears, the male tigers more often hunted large adult bears:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://elementy.ru/nauchno-populyarnaya...stvovaniya


Yuri Dunishenko, a senior researcher, biologist & tiger ecologist (over 40 years of field experience studying tigers) also confirmed that tigers hunt and kill large bears:

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://amur-tiger.ru/data/files/files/ti...ressed.pdf


Male tigers in particular, mostly prey on adult bears. STP biologists also found mostly adult brown bears (Females) & black bears (both sexes) killed and eaten by tigers. Which also confirms Tkachenko's observations. The fact that tigers mainly hunt adult brown bears in summer and autumn, when bears are at their peak weights and condition, suggests that brown bears of similar size and weight are often killed by tigers. 

I also posted plenty of authentic information and accounts from various experts in the tiger extinction thread, which clearly proves that tigers successfully prey on bears of many sizes, from large, medium to small.

Although I respect Bart Schleyer's work with tigers, its not safe to base your conclusion off just his observations, because his observations happened during the winter period, not summer, and his research was very limited compared to other Russian biologists and zoologists who have decades more experience than he did.

Quote:Found this both on Carnivora and another forum: It seems that Siberian tiger's generally prey on brown bears which are 100 pounds lighter than them.

Another:

*This image is copyright of its original author

This source is reporting misinformation. It states that Siberian tigers "generally" attack brown bears during winter hibernation. This is clearly wrong and debunked by numerous modern scientific research. STP biologists never found a single case of a hibernating brown bear killed by a tiger. All brown bears, including the large adult female bears, were hunted and killed by tigers mainly during the summer, autumn months, and in some cases even killed outside their dens (non-hibernating bears) in winter.

Then, even more recent studies (2015-2017) from the same biologists (Miquelle, Kerley etc) again showed that tigers mostly predate on bears during the snow-free period (summer & fall), with tigers consuming more bears than wild boars and deer during the summer months.

Brown bears are barely available during winter hibernation for tigers to prey on.

"The availability of different types of prey for the tiger varies depending on the seasons (Yudin, Yudina, 2009; Rozhnov et al., 2012; Zaitsev et al., 2013); for example bears during winter sleep, as a rule, they are not available for predation (Kostoglod, 1977; Seryodkin et al., 2012; Seryodkin et al., 2018)."

https://www.biosoil.ru/files/diss/57/%D0...%D0%BE.pdf

Brown bears usually den at high elevations on the upper part of steep slopes, which reduces the risk of tiger predation because tigers infrequently use such high elevations:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.bearbiology.org/wp-content/u...n_14_2.pdf


This study (one of many other sources) shows that bears make up a large significant portion of tiger diet in the summer:

A comparison of food habits and prey preference of Amur tiger at three sites in the Russian Far East

Across all sites, tiger diet varied seasonally, with tigers consuming more bear, and less wild boar biomass during the snow-free months.

In addition, bears constituted a significantly higher proportion of tiger diet in the summer, and while not significant, badgers increased in the diet of tigers during the snow-free period as well...

The increased predation on bears and badgers is likely due to their increased availability following emergence from hibernation and the increased vulnerability of their young, although tigers do prey on adult bears. Amur tiger predation on bear is not a new phenomenon, but our results, in addition to identifying seasonality in tiger predation of bears, also suggests that bears constitute a relatively large portion of tiger diet, particularly during the snow-free period. This runs counter to previous assertions that the risk of injury was too high for tigers to regularly predate bears. (Miquelle et al. 2010).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication...n_Far_East

Your source also states that tigers (generally) prey on bears when ungulate populations decline. Again, modern scientific research has proven that this is a false assumption and theory. Some tigers actually prefer hunting and eating bears over ungulate prey animals, and studies show that tigers primarily hunt bears during the summer and autumn period.

I'm gonna post plenty more information about this in my upcoming posts in the tiger extinction thread.

So your source is clearly incorrect and reporting false information, and outdated assumptions made by some researchers from the last century! Brown bears are generally attacked by tigers in summer and autumn and bears are regularly hunted even when ungulate populations are thriving.

Quote:Summary of my opinion: Male Ussuri brown bears will win in a fight to death with a male amur tiger more often than not between 70% to 80% of the time because of the weight advantage. Off course there is an account which says a brown bear prefers a tigress. I personally believe it is because the tigress has an even less chance of winning, an in the wild animals generally target the weakest ones in the group. Besides, a female tigress with cubs has to hunt more meaning more meat to rob from. No wild animal has the aggression of a game rooster and or a gladiator dog due to men's intervention which results in animal cruelty. There are also accounts which says Amur tigers avoid male brown bears. There is an account where a male brown bear killed a young but fully grown male tiger, young adults sometimes do take more risks than mature adults (e.g. there is an account posted a long time agon on carnivora that juvenile crowned eagles take riskier prey than mature adults). Off course the tiger will have more kills being the full time hunter.

If weight was the most important advantage in this match-up, then most biologists, naturalists, zoologists & hunters wouldn't favour the tiger over a large male brown bear in a fight. But they do for a reason.

Nature has proven over and over again, that size does not always matter. Yes, the adult male brown bear on average possesses a weight advantage, but the male tiger is still a similar-sized predator that possesses far more vital advantages for combat than any bear does. The tiger has superior speed, agility, power, deadlier weaponry, bite-force, reflexes and is a far more accustomed and skilled killer. Not to mention the tigers supreme precision and efficiency.

The brown bear by nature is a true omnivore, who's diet (at least 95%) consists of plants, berries, acorns and pine nuts, whereas the tiger is a true natural born killing machine, a very dominant apex predator, who's diet consists only of the flesh of other large animals it kills, and these prey animals also include bears. The weaponry, killing skills and experience is all heavily in the tigers favor. Hence why all the fight statistics from biologists and reports/observations from experienced Russian hunters & naturalists consistently show that tigers win most fights against brown bears.

So I think the male tiger has a clear advantage over a large male brown bear and would be the usual winner in a fight.

I recently found this source:

"Hunters, who are constantly in the taiga, say that if the largest animals - a tiger and a brown bear - meet, they, feeling each other's strength, will certainly try to disperse peacefully. But if the conflict cannot be resolved in this way, then it is believed that the tiger will most likely win, if he is not injured, tired and has not lost strength from hunger."

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/%...frontcover

Anyway, I don't expect to change your opinion on this match-up, I just wanted to add my take too.

Also, no brown bear has ever been reported killing a fully-grown male tiger, where did you hear this from? Show me the account?  The tiger was clearly stated to be a young male aged around 4 years old, not a full-grown adult.

Male tigers are fully-grown at age 6+ years old. Below this age, their either young adults/subadults, juveniles or cubs. There's not a single reliable case in history of a full-grown adult male tiger killed by a Ussuri brown bear.

Quote:Another account:

*This image is copyright of its original author

I don't understand, why did you post this irrelevant account of two brown bears fighting??

Whats your point?

Quote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Lets also clear up this statement from Batalov....

Batalov very clearly states that tigers avoid conflict with large male brown bears during the MATING SEASON, not in general. There's a big difference. Some bear posters have taken this statement right out of context, put their own spin on it, twist Batalov's words and act like tigers avoid large male brown bears in general. Which is a lie.

All Batalov's statement clearly suggests, that tigers avoid unnecessary conflict with large male brown bears only during the mating season, thats it. Not in general.

According to the same source, Batalov stated that in summer, tigers often prey on bears, and when hunting bears, some male tigers can attack almost any bear:

In the summer, the tiger has a wider range of food: in addition to ungulates, its diet begins to include badgers, raccoon dogs as well as bears. At the same time, the predation threat on ungulates decreases. This is due to the fact that, with the advent of broods, adult female deer and wild boar become secretive and stay within a limited area. Badgers and bears, on the contrary, have an active lifestyle, especially during twilight hours and by night. Noisily moving in the forest in search of food or mating partners, they become easy prey for tigers too. Adult male tigers, depending on how hungry and self-confident they are, can attack almost any animal.

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://programmes.putin.kremlin.ru/en/tiger/news/25556

Batalov has never stated or even implied that tigers avoid hunting adult male brown bears, period.

Quote:Also regarding the Chamlid and the bespectacled tiger incident, how heavy would the former be? There is no account that measures his weight yet (but I am interested in your comment and Peter's comment too). Some consider it to be unconfirmed probably because of the incident where Dale took 20 minutes in killing a female Ussuri brown bear almost his own weight. True Dale did not get severely injured but he did receive a gash to the flank (the account is posted on the edge of extinction thread) and rested for a while. Still waiting for Nyers to get the reply from Alexander's email :).

Doesn't matter how much Chlamid weighed, he was described as a "Incredibly huge" brown bear. In fact, the reason he received the name 'Chlamid' was because of his gigantic size. He was estimated to weigh around 350-420 kg, a giant bear. Whereas 'Ochkarik' is a moderate sized tiger estimated by Batalov to weigh around 180 kg. So Chlamid was most likely twice his weight.

But Ochkarik is a experienced bear-killer who habitually hunts bears. We have confirmation (via email) from Batalov's personal assistant 'Olga' that Batalov is certain and has no doubts that Ochkarik killed and ate Chlamid. He said it must have happened. And thats why he told this incident to at least two Russian journalists, with 3 sources reporting this case.

Batalov found the remains of a brown bear in Ochkarik's faeces, the tiger had severely fattened up, to the point where it shocked Batalov and Chlamid had suddenly vanished never to be seen again. 

The administrator of a bear forum says that if a tiger ever killed a full-grown adult male brown bear, biologists would write and publish a scientific report about the incident. This is completely false. No biologist would waste their time writing up and publishing a scientific paper about one incident. Its a well known established fact that tigers hunt and kill adult brown bears, this is not news to Batalov. The fact that Batalov told his assistant and at least two different Russian journalists that Ochkarik killed and ate Chlamid, proves that this account is confirmed or at least reliable.

Highly respected scientific experts, biologists and authorities like Batalov don't just jump to conclusions without any strong circumstantial evidence backing it.

Dale never took 20 minutes to kill the large female brown bear, where did you hear this from? Evidence? Nor does the account even mention that Dale was injured, nothing. This was a myth made-up by Bear fanboyz in the old AVA forums. Read the primary source (actual account) there's no mention of Dale being injured at all or taking 20 minutes to kill the bear. The fight wasn't eye-witnessed by anyone, let alone timed by a watch, so how can anyone know how long the fight took??

The account your referring too where the tiger got a minor injury (bleeding wound) is referring to a different male tiger who also attacked and killed a large mature female brown bear weighing 150-200 kg after a prolonged battle. This case happened one year after Dale's death. (2001)

The July 1997 account is referring to Dale's account and the August, 2001 account is referring to a different male tiger:

*This image is copyright of its original author

According to a report from the Siberian Tiger Project, Dale (Misha, M20) had no problems in killing those large female brown bears almost his own weight; In one case there was a prolonged fight, but Dale was never reported to have been injured:

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.nfwf.org/sites/default/files...056.03.pdf

Lastly, just because a tiger gets a minor injury killing a large adult female brown bear, doesn't mean it can't kill an adult male brown bear. There's a confirmed case of a large male brown bear getting severely wounded by a tigress, now does that mean a large male brown bear is incapable of killing a male tiger in a fight??  

Biologist Kucherenko mentions a case (eye-witnessed by his colleague) of a tigress attacking and killing a big male brown bear.

Every case is different, there's some rare cases where tigers get injured while killing large male wild boars, but in general, tigers/tigresses (including subadults & juveniles) kill large male wild boars quite easily. All predators get injured now and then, even by some smaller animals, but in vast majority of cases, they will kill that animal, even though large and dangerous, without any problems. So that logic is badly flawed.

Great accounts and thanks for replying. I have already read most of them. Some of the articles do talk about tigers killing large bears. However, there is no specific mention about the age, gender and condition of the animal.

Regarding male brown bears killing male tigers, there is none mention in Siberian tiger project, however, they seem to be mention in this article below:

*This image is copyright of its original author

That is probably included in the 12 cases of the brown bears winning although the statistics favours the tiger.

"However, interest in nature, as a rule, arises from attempts to find answers to "children's" questions. In fairness, it is worth noting that the relationship between the Ussuri tiger and the brown bear still attracted the attention of professionals. Nevertheless, there is not so much reliable information about resolving conflict situations between the two “owners” of the taiga. S.P. Kucherenko notes that the average tiger is always stronger than the average bear. Of the 17, reliably known to him, cases of tiger fights with a brown bear in Sikhote Alin in 1965-1976. in 8 cases the animals dispersed, in 6 the tiger defeated, in 3 the bear defeated. In addition, 9 cases of tiger attacks on bears in dens were recorded (the tiger crushed and ate 7 adult animals and 9 cubs). But a careful analysis of the relationships of these predators leads the author to conclude that the brown bear is more aggressive (especially in hunger). The tiger tries to attack medium-sized bears. A tigress protecting tiger cubs fights with any bear and dies more often [1]. According to the materials of the zoologist V.E. Kostogloda, from 28 cases of fights of these two predators studied by him, priority in attack was on the side of a brown bear. V.E. Bone clodger recorded 7 attacks of brown bears on tigers and 6 attacks of tigers on bears. Of the 28 fights already mentioned between the tiger and the bear, the tiger won in 11 cases, the bear defeated in 9 cases, and the animals dispersed in 8 cases. Among 9 dead tigers, there were 5 adults; the rest were cubs [2]. The data of V.E. Kostogloda about the greater initiative of the bears in the power resolution of conflicts with the tiger, were later confirmed by the same S.P. Kucherenko, who pointed out that out of 44 authentically recorded cases of fights, the initiative in the attack belonged to the bear in 13, the tiger - in nine (in 22 cases the instigator could not be determined).In the course of these fights, 14 bears and 8 tigers died (in 22 cases the animals dispersed, having received quite severe wounds) [3]. V. Sysoev reports about 4 tiger battles with a bear (two ended in favor of the bear, the tiger defeated in one and dispersed in another animal). The hunter G. Gorokhov pointed out that out of 10 collisions of adult tigers with a brown bear, in 5 cases the predators dispersed, in 3 the tiger defeated, in 2 the bear [5]. V.S. Khramtsov in the work "On the relationship of bears and tigers in the spurs of the Reserve Range" wrote that for 1989-1990. in the Lazovsky Reserve, 8 cases of death of white-breasted bears from tigers were established and only one case of death of a brown bear from the “master of the jungle” was recorded. There were no facts of the death of tigers from bears [6]. A.G. Yudakov and I.G. Nikolaev for three seasons of winter stationary observations only twice encountered the facts of eating tigers of bears. And then, it was about white-breasted bears [7]. At the same time, according to K.N. Tkachenko, in the tiger feces he studied, the brown bear accounted for 18.5%, while the white-breasted bear accounted for only 14.8%. In general, in the diet of the tiger, the brown bear firmly held an honorable third place, letting go only wild boar (37%) and red deer (29.6%) [8]. Biologist N.N. Rukovsky asked 42 hunter-guards of the Primorsky Territory to clarify the relationship between a tiger and a bear. Of these, 7 people replied that the tiger specifically hunts for the bear; 6 people said that the bear walks in the footsteps of the tiger, collecting leftover food; 14 - talked about tiger fights with a bear without a tragic outcome; two recalled cases when a bear strangled a tiger; 11 claimed that the tiger killed the bear. N. Rukovsky himself, as well as most other authors, believes that fights between predators occur most often in the hungry (for a bear) years, when the rods collide with tigers near the killed animals. And only in rare cases can a tiger (most often a young one) become a victim. The tiger prefers to hunt not for brown, but for Himalayan bears. N. Rukovsky himself in the wake once determined that a brown bear killed a tiger. The bear was very large (this was visible on the trail), and the young tiger was about 4 years old (it was visible on the skull). The battlefield itself (broken fir trunks with a thick arm, scattered shreds of wool, blood) testified to a long and fierce struggle [14]."

From Carnivora. The four year old tiger might not be full grown but it is at least close to being so.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Formidable large males are generally avoided according to this account.

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://u.cubeupload.com/Mountain_Lord279/Screenshot20191017at.png

Some tigers have learn to hunt bears yet they seem to be unable to prevent adult male brown bears from taking their food. These male brown bears are probably much heavier. There are adult male brown bears that have fled at the sight of tigers but again according to Grizzly Years, the grizzly bears have the personalities of the seven dwafts - some are more timid than others. It seems every animal has aggressive and timid specimens of their own.


I remember Linda Kerley saying that amur tigers can kill bears up to the largest female brown bear which does not contradict Bart Scheleyer, who said although the tiger generally kills brown bears, 100 times lighter, but not always. Here is the email:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Female brown bears can be heavier than adult male asiatic black bears too.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Tigers also prey on two or three bears of two species per year. From Siberian Tiger Project.


Hungry predators do attack anything in their path (especially when they have been starving for a while), however, it does not mean they always win. Regarding the tigress killing a male brown bear, I think that brown bear must have been 170 kg, Warsaw posted that account (probably). 170 kg is hardly a full grown male Ussuri brown bear but it is still impressive. The other is a very old account when an old male grizzly got severely injured by a train before a tigress killed it.

Tiger's also become the usual winner because they can choose which bear they want to attack in the wild. Sometimes I do wish that they will be more good real life videos on this. Adult bears include any bear that has recently left its parent. For example, the three year old bear killed by Boris was classified as an adult but is not sexually mature yet. Tigers and brown bears sexually mature around the same time but the latter takes longer to reach full grown adult hood.

Personally, there does not seem to be a specific account of a mature male brown bear between 9 years old and above being killed by a tiger. The most capable of doing so would be the 600 pound tiger (an exceptionally heavy one):

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://archive.org/details/animalolympianss00tayl/page/n1/mode/2up?q=sporting+champions+of+the+animal+world Reply