ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[peter]

ABOUT TWO EMAILS, A NEW MEMBER POSTING IN THIS THREAD AND TIGERS AND BEARS

a - Introduction

Almost a month ago, Sanjay received two emails from an " ... anonymous user ... " (from Sanjay's email). A user, to be more accurate, "... not happy with ... " the posts of 'Apex Titan'. This new member of Wildfact posts in the tiger extinction thread about tigers and bears. 

In this post, I will first discuss the emails of the anonymous user. In the second paragraph, I will respond to the accusations. In the third, I will explain why I contacted 'Apex Titan'. In the fourth paragraph, a few remarks about tigers and bears in the Russian Far East will be added. The last paragraph, as usual, will have a few conclusions. 

b - The emails of the anonymous user

b1 - First email:

" ... Wildfact used to be known as a forum were misinformation was not allowed. Now there is a poster called 'Apex Titan', who has already been banned three times before from Wildfact, posting pure misinformation about tigers and bears. It's clear that his only agenda is to downgrade bears, you can clearly see this in every post he makes. So this is now allowed at Wildfact? A guy who was banned 3 times for posting 'outright misinformation' can register again and be allowed to post? No one challenges his posts in the slightest bit. Let it be known that because of this, there are a lot of people who don't consider Wildfact as reliable anymore and have deleted it from their favorites. So this is making you guys look bad. Nice going ... " (copy of the first email).

(Comment) - The anonymus user then provided a link to one of the posts of 'Apex Titan' in this thread. After the link, he concluded:

" ... That is all he does, crap on bears. No one even tells him anything. Nice going Peter and the rest ... ".

b2 - Second email:

" ... So as I was saying in my previous message, Wildfact didn't allow this kind of behaviour before, but now it seems like the 'tiger fanboys' have finally come out in you guys. Check this out, here is 'Apex Titan' who at that time was 'Ghengis' getting banned by Peter for posting 'outright misinformation' ... ".

(Comment) - The anonymous user provided a link to post 1,696 in this thread. After the link, he continued:

" ... So now not only is he allowed to post again, but no one even challenges his posts in the slightest bit? Like I said, there are several important posters who are aware of this and are pissed off at Wildfact. Are you guys going to allow him to crap on bears on every single post? He thinks tigers 'dominate' bears, while the reality is that tigers completely avoid adult male brown bears. So now you guys now, your best bet is to BAN him for a 4th time, there is no other way around it. Unless you want Wildfact to become a fanboy forum and misinformation. Think about it ... " (copy of the second email). 

c - Response  

I promised Sanjay I would respond to both emails, but admit it took an effort. The reason is the emails aren't about content (information based on research), but about something of a different nature. Anyhow. 

My first task was to find the anonymous user. It turned out to be a former member of Wildfact, who now calls himself 'Brobear'. He's the administrator of a forum called 'Domain of the Bears' (EDIT 19-10-2022: I know 'Brobear' didn't write the emails, but he knew they were written by a member of 'Domain of the Bears' and so, as he explained on his forum, did 'Brobear'. As administrator, he's responsible. This is the reason he's addressed in this post).   

At Wildfact, although new to 'forums' back then, he was offered the position of moderator. His job was to develop the bear section. He accepted the offer, but left one day without leaving a trace and never returned. Years later, we learned he had joined another forum. I know it's difficult for bears to resist the urge to wander off every now and then, but he could have informed us.  

A few years later, 'Shadow' joined Wildfact. I quickly noticed his inquisitive and active nature and offered him moderation only a few months later. His job was to develop etc. He accepted the offer, but, without leaving a word, decided for a long walk one day in December. I assumed he got involved in some serious sleeping (it was, after all, nearly winter), but he showed up out of nowhere about half a year later to tell us he had joined another forum. Initially, he didn't quite like the climate of 'Domain of the Bears'. After a serious collision with a member easily dwarfing the most notorious tiger 'fanboy', he decided to return to Wildfact. After informing us about his whereabouts, he adapted his office and continued with tigers and bears. 

Just before he returned, a former member ('Ghengis', now using the name 'Apex Titan'), had rejoined our community. The first three attempts resulted in a ban. The last ban, as 'Brobear' wrote in his 'anonymous' emails, was a result of posting misinformation.  

Most members banned from Wildfact for posting misinformation or starting a forest fire tend to develop in these departments, but most isn't all and 'Apex Titan' is an example. After his last ban, he started his own forum. He also joined Carnivora. His posts about tigers and bears in that forum caught the attention of some members of Wildfact. They informed me and I decided to read a few posts. Although the fire typical for his nature was still there, I concluded he had learned to use it in a more productive way. 

The information he posted was (largely) unknown, new and interesting. In spite of that, I decided against using it for the tiger extinction thread. The reason is I didn't want to take the credit he deserved. Not much later, he rejoined Wildfact and started posting in the thread 'Amur tigers'. I contacted him and offered him the opportunity to post in the tiger extinction thread. That thread has more views, meaning his posts would reach more readers. In order to prevent forest fires, I asked him to write article-like posts based on good information only and to refrain from opinions. He accepted and started posting. 

In one of his first posts he discussed a recent interview with A. Batalov, a Russian biologist kneedeep involved in tigers and bears in the Russian Far East. In the interview, Batalov, Director of (what used to be) a hunting estate located near Chabarowsk, talked about a large male brown bear known as 'Chlamyda' and a tigress with cubs known as 'Rochelle' (also known as 'Rachelle'). The big bear had followed and robbed the tigress for a considerable period of time in 2017. The result was trouble. As Amur tigers are endangered, hunting the big bear was considered. The tigress, also fed up, was heard calling to the father of the cubs, tiger 'Ochkarik'. Batalov, although very experienced, said he never heard a call like that. The male tiger 'Ochkarik' quickly responded. A video showing him and 'Rachelle' was posted some time ago. When those following the proceedings thought a showdown would follow, the bear suddenly disappeared, never to be seen again. 

Not much later, rumours about the bear and the tiger were discussed at different forums. Our former mod 'Wolverine' kept us informed. After he left, our new bear mod 'Shadow' decided to contact Batalov. He got permission to inform us about the exchange on the bear and the male tiger. Batalov, to keep it short, said he didn't know what had happened to the bear. That was, if correct, in 2019. A few years later, however, Batalov, in two interviews, said he was sure the big bear had been killed and eaten by tiger 'Ochkarik'. 

This statement resulted in quite a bit of commotion. One reason is an average adult male brown bear is a large and robust animal, well surpassing the weight of an average adult male Amur tiger. Another is tiger 'Ochkarik' is a bit smaller than average (Batalov, who has weighed quite a few bears, estimated the male tiger at 160-180 kg), whereas the bear, estimated at 350-400 kg, was an exceptional individual. 
Most of those considered to be in the know think adult male Ussuri brown bears are out of the predatory reach of adult male Amur tigers. Russian biologists, in fact, never found solid evidence of an adult male brown bear killed and eaten by an adult male Amur tiger. Keeping all of this in mind, many of those interested in tigers and bears wondered why Batalov concluded the big bear had been killed and eaten by a male tiger less than half his weight.   

When 'Apex Titan' started about the interviews, 'Shadow' informed him about Batalov's opinion in 2019. He added he didn't understand why Batalov had changed his mind between 2019 and 2021 and concluded it might have been an attempt to attract a bit of attention (Batalov also offers tours for small groups). Our new member 'Apex Titan' knew about Batalov's opinion, but thought Batalov must have had a good reason to change his mind. Our mod 'Shadow' didn't agree. 

Their exchange, to keep it short, didn't result in a debate. The reason was 'Shadow' didn't want to get involved. In spite of that decision, he did nothing but debate. That is to say, he continued to oppose 'Apex Titan' in every possible way. When it became clear he was trying to discredit 'Apex Titan' and stop him from continuing, an intervention couldn't be avoided. When I told him his attempt to prevent a healthy discussion didn't fit his position (he was, after all, a moderator at Wildfact), 'Shadow' decided to leave Wildfact and rejoin the forum he had left a few months before. 

The immediate result was a discussion at 'Domain of the bears'. During the discussion, it was quickly decided to dismiss 'Apex Titan' as a 'tiger fanboy'. Another result was a member of 'Domain of the bears'), disguised as 'an anonymous user' and backed by the administrator of that forum (see the first paragraph of this post), decided to contact the owners of Wildfact. That is to say, not the one interested in tigers and bears, but the one trying to run a forum. And when his indirect approach, as was to be expected, resulted in a delay, he, on top of that, had the audacity to dismiss the one he really wanted to address. The outcome of this decision was a climate that resulted in hostility and insult. What I'm saying is 'Brobear' opened a door that should stay closed at all times. 

As an administrator and a mod, 'Brobear', you are the one responsible for the climate.  

And what was the reason you decided to open the door? To address me? About me telling a mod not to prevent, but to encourage and guide a debate about the, largely unknown, interactions between the two largest predators in an unknown region? For what reason? To prevent posters from discussing things not quite to your liking? But the aim of forums is to inform the general public about reality, remember? The last thing we want, is to create a picture existing in the minds of those guided by preference. This is what people you, as a general rule, dismiss as 'fanboys' do all the time. Also remember 'Shadow' wasn't dismissed. He was addressed for a very good reason. He didn't like it, left and rejoined 'Domain of the Bears', where he decided to downgrade (one of the co-owners of) Wildfact, followed by 'Apex Titan' and Batalov. And for what, 'Brobear'? I did what any co-owner of a public forum should do: to protect the free flow of information. Not just any information, but good information (information based on research).      

The question is if 'Apex Titan' is contributing in this department. In spite of your judgement, the answer is affirmative. His posts are based on research and insights of those considered to be 'in the know'. The main reason it seems to be somewhat one-sided at times is those interested in bears decided to leave the debate. For unknown reasons, they seem to prefer to complain about the info he posts in a room filled with people with similar opinions. As that's what most, if not all of them, offer: opinions. But 'Apex Titan' isn't involved in opinions. I asked him to post good information and that's what he is doing. If you disagree with the info he posts, 'Brobear', contact those involved in research, articles, books and videos.  

My advice is to quit blaming those you dismissed and to join the debate. The only condition is quality. We want an exchange based on research, arguments and sound reasoning. No opinions, no accusations, no forest fires and no unfounded statements and conclusions. 

Before you get active abroad, solve a problem at home. I'm referring to one of the points made one of the former members of 'Domain of the bears'. In one of his last contributions, 'Smedz' said both you and 'Shadow' had broken a vital rule of your forum. The rule to refrain from actions that could result in hostility between different forums, I mean. 

I agree with his observation. There are not that many forums about wild animals. What they need, is good publicity. The more people visiting our forums, the better. It's one of the best ways to get readers interested in things that need to be discussed before a point of no return is reached. The last thing we want, is forum owners and mods dismissing each other.     

The poster you targeted in your two emails, by the way, is quite aware in this department. The thread he uses to inform our members and readers about tigers and bears in the Russian Far East and northeastern China (referring to this thread) got more views than ever before. Not bad for a new member so easily discredited by so many for no reason at all.   

After hearing about 'Domain of the Bears' ('Shadow' informed us), I visited your forum a few times. I think it's a nice forum, but my advice is to stay away from unfounded accusations, dismissals and all the rest of it. I hope you'll use your energy in the best possible way to develop your forum. Best of luck and kind regards from all of us! 

d - About tigers and bears in the Russian Far East and northeastern China

Although quite a few of those interested in tigers and bears have outspoken opinions about (interactions between) male Amur tigers and male Ussuri brown bears, things are all but clear. A few examples. 

Male tigers seem to avoid male brown bears in some seasons (referring to the mating season in particular), whereas male brown bears seem to avoid male tigers near their kill. This is quite something, as bears of all ages and sizes visit tiger kills whenever possible. While it is true some bears are prepared and able to drive tigers of their kills, male tigers (referring to recent research) do not seem to be included. Could it be adult males of both species avoid situations that could result in hostility? 

Those interested in bears often refer to the size of wild Amur tigers today. The table published in 2005 suggests 'adult' males (tigers of 3 years and over) average 389 pounds, but the sample was small and it, on top of that, included young adults and a male in very bad health. Furthermore, all tigers in the table were captured in a region in which Aldrich footsnares were used. Some males suffered significant damage to their teeth trying to get out of these footsnares. In a document first published on a Russian forum almost a decade ago ('The snare for tiger', S. Kolchin and P. Maystrenko, 2013)), it was stated the campaign to capture tigers in this way had had a significant effect on the number of male tigers in that particular region. Some male tigers surviving the attempt to get out of these footsnares quickly deteriorated. One of them killed a villager later. Although the criticism was countered ('Tooth breakage in tiger: Cause for conflict?', Goodrich (JM) et al., 2012), the document about the effect of Aldrich footsnares had a result in that biologists seem to be more reluctant to use them. 

In the last decade, many hundreds of photographs (referring to camera trap pics) have been published. The ones I saw (in the Amur tiger thread), suggests Amur tigers today show more variation than three decades ago. Although many think wild adult male Amur tigers only seldom exceed 450 pounds (the heaviest actually weighed in the last decade was a shortish young adult male of 468 pounds), one of our members with access to good information ('Betty') saw a video about a male of 596 pounds (270,34 kg) recently captured in northeastern China. That tiger was weighed in the presence of a biologist. I read more reports about large male Amur tigers I consider reliable. Apart from that, there was a discussion about the heel width of tigers (in this thread) not so long ago. The conclusion was males with a heel width of 13 cm and over most probably (well) exceed 550 pounds (249,48 kg) in good conditions. 

There have been clashes between male brown bears and male Amur tigers in the previous century, but not in the last 29 years (1992-2021). Before the Siberian Tiger Project started in 1992 most (Russian) biologists thought male bears would win 'on points', but the information I collected when I started posting suggests it was a very close call. In the last decade, opinions about tigers and bears seem to have changed somewhat. 

The main reason is research. Although some of those interested in bears maintain most bears hunted by tigers are immature animals 'ambushed' by experienced male tigers only, recent information leaves no doubt as to the age and size of (some of) the bears killed. Adult brown bears, up to the size of 'the largest and healthiest females' (referring to an email of L. Kerley), have been found more than once by biologists. This fits reliable information about the habits of tigers in southern Asia. Although as opportunistic as other big cats in times of need, tigers, and adult males in particular, often select large animals in 'normal' conditions. They need to in order to prevent energy deficits, especially in regions with tough conditions like the Russian Far East. 

In this respect, tigers, at least in that region, seem to do better than wolves. This could be a deciding factor in the department of distribution. Wolves, and bears (referring to their habit to hibernate and to visit tiger kills whenever possible), seem to struggle in regions with tough living conditions that have tigers. Seasonal energy deficits could be the main reason, but tigers also hunt competitors. In the Russian Far East, wolves and female brown bears with cubs often leave districts that have tigers. For tigers, there's no need to target male brown bears to achieve that goal. Hunting females with cubs is as effective, if not more so (male bears approach females in the mating season, not the other way round). 

Although experienced male Ussuri brown bears and Amur tigers seem to avoid each other, they might target vulnarable individuals every now and then. In this way, as some biologists suggested, 'problem' animals are removed. This means (overly aggressive) young adults, individuals affected by injuries and disease and animals affected by old age should be the usual victims. What I read, suggests this seems to be the case.          

There are two confirmed reports about male tigers killed by brown bears. One of them was a young adult male killed by a 'very large' male brown bear after a prolonged struggle. There is no information about the second incident. This, however, was more than enough 'evidence' for posters interested in bears. I'm referring to those who tend to dismiss posters with a different opinion as 'tiger fanboys'. 

In his great book 'Der Tiger' (third edition, 1983), V. Mazak mentions 3 male brown bears killed by male tigers. In the summer of 1943 (pp. 189), near the Sungari River, a 'very large male brown bear' was killed and eaten by a very large male tiger. In the spring of 1951 (pp. 91), on the bank of the Tatibe River, a brown bear was killed by a tigress. Another large male brown bear (pp. 79) was killed in the southern part of Sichote-Alin in the winter of 1958-1959. If we add the 'large' brown bear mentioned by Rakov, the final result is 4 'large' brown bears killed by tigers. Of these, at least 2 were large males.  

There's no doubt about the male brown bears killed in 1943 and in the 1958-1959 winter, but there were questions about the bear mentioned by Rakov. The discussion about this incident was quickly concluded because of a lack of information. The lengthy discussion about the bear killed in the spring of 1951 also didn't produce a result. In the third edition of his book published in 1983, Mazak wrote the bear was 'fully adult', but that's it. In 'Die Saugetiere der Sowjetunion' (V.G. Heptner and A.A. Sludskij, Band III, German translation, Jena, 1980), the incident is discussed as well. Although Heptner and Sludskij offer a bit more, it isn't clear if the bear was a male or a female. Based on the description of Mazak and the details mentioned in 'Die Säugetiere der Sowjetunion' (pp. 144 and 149), it's likely the brown bear, " ... Körperlänge 158 cm, Gewicht etwa 170 kg ... " (pp. 149), was an adult female. It could, however, have been an immature male. Brown bears lose up to 30% of their autumn weight during hibernation, in some cases even more. This means it's very likely that the bear killed in May 1951 exceeded 200 kg in late autumn.

Those considered as bear and tiger authorities never refer to the incidents mentioned above. The information about the bear killed in the summer of 1943 was dismissed, because the one informing the public (Jankowski) wasn't a biologist. Rakov's information was accepted, but he didn't offer any details about the bear killed. Same for Bromley's information. That leaves the " ... large, old male brown bear ... " (Mazak, 1983, pp. 79) killed in the 1958-1959 winter. The biologist who had information about this incident (K.G. Abramov) died well before his time. This means he didn't havethe opportunity to publish. Mazak knew about it, because he read his notes. In the list of references, he wrote: " ... Abramov, K.G. (1961): Unpublished notes placed at the author's disposal by Mrs. M.V. Abramova in 1966 ... " (Mazak, 1983, pp. 217).     
      
Meaning not one of the incidents mentioned above met the threshold. While those saying there are no confirmed reports about adult male brown bears killed by male tigers have a point, there's also no doubt four large brown bears have been killed by tigers in the recent past. At least two of them were males. The bear killed in the 1958-1959 winter was described as a 'large, old male', whereas the bear killed in 1943 was described as a " ... very large male ..., of which only a leg and the skull remained, which were found by Jankowski ... " (Mazak, 1983, pp. 189).     

What I'm saying is the tendency to apply preconceived ideas during discussions about (the outcome of) clashes between males has prevented a healthy debate so far. My guess is (referring to both emails discussed above) this will not change any time soon. In spite of that, our aim is to close the gap. I don't think it's superfluous to add that the attempt to get to a good conclusion will not be affected by preconceived ideas, preference and dismissals (again referring to both emails discussed above). The only deciding factor is good information (information based on research). If a debate is necessary, a mod will make sure it will be decided by reason and logic. Unsound arguments will be removed, no matter what.     

e - Conclusions

Our planet, although far from small, seems to get more crowded every year. The main reason is the growing number of humans. All of us want room to live. If we get it our way, the natural world will disappear right in front of our eyes. The first to suffer are large predators. 

Lev Kaplanov wasn't the last to hear the call of wild Amur tigers, but he knew it was close in the thirties of the last century. He was one of the few who acted. It cost him his life, but his efforts resulted in a change. It was to be a lasting change. The Russians are still heavily involved in serious conservation. The result is wild Amur tigers, about 700 of them (autumn 2022), are still with us. It's one of the achievements of the century. 

In the nineties of the last century, change was in the air in China as well. Today, conservation seems to be topping the list. Most of us don't know, but a lot of progress has been made in the last two decades. The attitude towards conservation has changed, new reserves have been created, thousands of cameras have been installed, problems are addressed and solved and many documents about interesting new projects have been published. The result is northeastern China has about 60 wild Amur tigers today (autumn 2022). 

These 700 Amur tigers share their habitat with thousands of Himalayan black bears and Ussuri brown bears. We know they co-exist, but we don't know in what way they interact. In order to get to more knowledge, research is needed and that's exactly what's happening today. At least, in that region. In most other regions, it's a very different story.   

Although the destruction of the natural world and the terrible consequences now get more attention than a decade ago, conservation still has little priority. For most politicians, news agencies and newspapers, conservation compares to an old train serving a few small communities in a rural region. They know they have to write about that train every now and then, but it has no political value.

This is why forums offering information about wild animals in general and large carnivores in particular serve a purpose. Wildfact now has well over a million views a month, not seldom substantially more. This means many people are interested in good information about the natural world. For them, conservation is an important issue. It also means those involved in forums have to be aware of this need and act accordingly.       

f - Two great photographs 

The two photographs at the bottom were first posted by 'Apex Titan' in the Amur tiger thread. It shows a big male brown bear and a big male tiger hugging the same tree somewhere in the Anuisky National Park. What I read (referring to the comment added by the one responsible for the camera traps), suggest these two know each other quite well. They use the same trails and the same tree to exchange information. 

Before showing the picture (bottom), I decided to add another to show you the size these animals can reach. Although the woman is positioned at the lower side of the tree, it's clear the tiger is a very large animal:  

*This image is copyright of its original author

  

The tiger in the picture below, known as 'The Beast' and one of the largest known these days, seems to compare for length (referring to the tiger above), but has a more developed neck and a larger skull.  

The brown bear (referring to the picture below), a bit closer to the tree, is bulkier in all respects, but the difference in the circumference of the upper arm, the fore-arm, the neck and the skull seems to be limited. In head and body length, the tiger seems to have the edge, but there's little to choose between both. Remember both were described as 'large' or 'very large'. The bear in particular, an oldish male, was well-known for his size:  

*This image is copyright of its original author

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