There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(10-22-2015, 11:48 AM)Dr Panthera Wrote: A conflict in Kuno between reintroduced Asiatic lions and transient tigers from Rajasthan or other areas from Madhya Pradesh is inevitable and will have tragic consequences to the preservation of both species especially the tiger.
Nature avoids duplication in apex predators except if resources are very rich or separation is present for example the Florida Everglades is a rich habitat where both the American crocodile and the American alligator occur, orcas and great white sharks share rich habitats in several areas , Jaguars and Pumas live together over most of the neotropics but Jaguars are larger and take larger prey, only in Mexico with abundant deer and peccaries population where the size of puma is close to the jaguar and the prey mass preferred is compatible .
Asiatic lions have known a great success in the last few decades more than all other lions and tigers, asiatic lions filled all available habitat and became so densely concentrated that some lions started to move away from the protected areas to conquer new grounds , the descendants of twelve lions from the 1800's number over five hundred now leading scientists like Sunquist to state that: " Lions living in tiger habitats, and utilizing tiger prey base, still occur at higher densities than tigers".
If lions are introduced to areas closer to tigers both animals will suffer in the following areas:
1- Direct Aggression
Encounters between the two animals are likely to be violent and aggressive, the solitary tiger is slightly larger ( males 180-200 kg with some even reaching the 240's, and females 100-160 kg compared with 160-190 kg for male Asiatic lions and 115-120 kg for lionesses ) the tiger may have a slight size advantage in one on one encounters, yet again most tigers in the proposed areas are transient young adults or past prime drifters and are likely to be killed by lions.
Meena and Jhala give Gir lion coalition numbers from one to four with a pair of males the most common, and pride lionesses from two to six lionesses with four or three lionesses being the most common, a pride of two lions and four lionesses will kill all tigers in the area, male lions will spend longer time with their lionesses when competition is fierce.
2- Cub Killing
Each species will attempt to kill the Cubs of the other, the lion pride system will protect the Cubs better than the solitary tigress
3- Kill Success Rate
Prides will kill more successfully and larger prey than single lions or tigers
4- Kill Retention
Prides will keep their kill from solitary tigers and may drive tigers off their kills
The tiger stands to lose a lot and it's situation is already grim outside major national parks so I want to see the lions in another area away from the Tigers maybe towards suitable habitat in north Gujarat , Punjab, and even Pakistan ...Mr Modi though will not agree to that .
A few things I disagree with
Gir Lions-
I have seen nothing that says they are more successful in hunting compared to solitary Tigers when comparing a pride to a lone predator.
Their prey size in no larger in the Gir than anywhere else in India, in fact I have never seen them successful hunt anything larger than a Blue Bull, but I am sure that has more to do with prey available to them than capabilities, obviously.
Pride males are much smaller in coalition size than others, may be with the threat of a larger apex cat that could threaten their young (The Tiger) they would adapt to form larger coalitions but that is a theory and remains to be seen. They still struggle the same as other coalitions in africa, correct?
Like you said, gir lion numbers are growing but their territory is not, we should see an increase in coalition size if that is the case, which to my knowledge, we haven't yet.
While a pride of females will most surely run off a tigress, they certainly will not run off a male, unless the pride number is larger, 5 or more I would think or they have cubs present. They obviously become much more aggressive but still lack the capabilities to deter an aggressive male who is hell bent on killing a cub from what I have seen.
Lastly, habitat, indian terrain may not be suitable to a large pride or coalition, outside of the gir, and even if so, there is no reason to think that they could live differently in other parts of indian than they do in the Gir.
One would have to assume that they would still need to have smaller prides and coalitions, and I have read that the Males very rarely, if at all are seen with the pride of females unless its time to mate.
But like you what has been discussed, may be the threat of a larger cat would change things, but I don't know, we would need much more evidence to back this.
Tigers-
You are correct in the idea of them being transient as there was a younger tiger who was forced to that area since he couldn't take over his own, but he will not be "young" for long. He will grow in an area unchallenged and prey available to him, his easily attainable size of 220kg - 250kg, 200kg mark would be a smaller tiger, more likely is the 220kg-250kg mark for a mature unchallenged male. This will leave him a 30-50kg weight advantage on the gir lions, but of course it wouldn't matter if he is forced to take on two prime males at the same time.
We are in agreement and in disagreement at the same time?the essence of debate!
Yes Nilgai and Sambar are the largest wild prey in Gir similar to Ranthambhore and Sariska both lions and tigers In western India depend on sambar and chital but supplement with domestic Buffalo and cattle, the environment in the dry forest of west India are not suitable to gaur or water buffalo so not much in large prey, I still think an adequate stock of sambar, chital, nilgai, and wild boar will be a good start, if India had the savannah woodlands with large prey lions would have colonized those areas long time ago, lions do not like monsoon forests, they do not occur in the Congo basin or west African forests they leave them to leopards!...maybe areas in north west India like the Punjab and Sindh in Pakistan but human density in these areas is high and I am not optimistic .
Communal cub defence by lionesses is impressive I have read accounts of one lioness, five lionesses, and two lionesses killing infanticidal males and similarly an account of an Amur tigress and three Bengal tigresses including the one described by Thapar killing male tigers in defence of cubs...while we marvel at male kings it is really the lionesses and tigresses who control the society!
Larger coalitions and prides ( 3 males, 6 females) occupy the prime areas in west Gir with the most prey and smaller prides with more loose male-female association occupy fringe habitat, pride formation and size is subject to the following:
1- Availability of resources particularly large prey
2- The protection of cubs against rival lions ( and possibly tigers if this happens)
3- The defence of territory against rival lions
4- Eliminating competition of other predators
We both agree that a 100 square kilometres housing a male tiger and two females can not accommodate a lion pride of two males and four or five females...there are not enough resources for all these cats and conflict is inevitable and I fear Tigers will be affected more so I want to see both cats fully protected and with prospects for their cubs
The young male tiger dispersing from Ranthambhore or Sariska is likely to be 100-120 kg at two to two and half years of age, he will need to roam and learn, hunt for himself and build his experience hopefully between five and six years he is fully grown almost twice his size and ready to attempt a challenge...sadly only a small percentage achieve that most wil be in conflict with man and will be shot and if we add lion conflict we will make it worse.
