Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars

[Pckts]

(03-13-2021, 02:52 AM)Balam Wrote:

(03-13-2021, 02:48 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(03-13-2021, 02:38 AM)Balam Wrote:

(03-13-2021, 02:30 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(03-13-2021, 01:58 AM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts @Dark Jaguar @Rage2277 @epaiva 

So guys I have more exciting developments to share here. I've been speaking with Lilian the president of Onçafari as I wanted to get to the bottom of the case with Joker. 

She sent me voice notes and honestly I'm not comfortable sharing private conversations with biologists on here anymore as it is easy for ill intended people to use them for their purposes on different forums, but I've been speaking with many of them over the past few months and they've shared a lot of really good insights.

Lilian told me that she was present during Joker's second capture last year unlike Edu, she told me that the Onçafari team decided a few years back that it would make sense for the most equipped person to be the one in charge of getting the measurements of jaguars, her being that person. She said that including her there were three people around Joker during the time he was captured, and I was correct on my previous assertion, she told me that the 140 kg value for Joker was indeed recorded on the scale, but he so heavy that they could not position him on the right angle and the scale stopped a couple of times at 140 kg, but she reaffirmed that the value could not be recorded in its entirely, hence why they have him as "more than 140 kg".

She said Joker was a massive jaguar and there was a possibility that he got even bigger in his second capture compared to the first one. To make this assessment she told me something that I also said here before a couple of months back (she reaffirmed so many of my hypothesis without me asking her), she mentioned Felino. When Felino was first captured he was young and inexperienced, he then left the area and returned back significantly bigger. I mentioned a couple of months back how much bigger Felino had gotten when he was seen mating with massive 92 kg female Nusa on 2018, you be the judges:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

She said it was very common for dominant males to fluctuate often in size and get very big after returning back from periods where they've not been seen often. She thinks that may have been the case for Joker as well.

She told me Joker was quite a bit bigger than Robusto, a jaguar that weighed almost 140 kg as well. She said Joker was a "dinosaur", and sent me the following picture of his capture:

*This image is copyright of its original author

He's an absolute beast, and if you look at his mid section, he was completely empty bellied too! You're looking at a jaguar with prehistoric proportions akin to a lion or tiger.

On the second capture the team had a similar problem where he started to wake up earlier from the anesthesia so they left him, she said they were quite frustrated they couldn't get his total weight on that capture.

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Overall I maintain my position that Joker is bigger than López, perhaps we can compare them side by side and see how they fare? Caiman Ecological Refuge is the perfect example of an area where jaguars have been allowed to flourished and as a result they've begin to express sizes similar to what they expressed in prehistoric times. I can't put into words how grateful I am for the work Onçafari does.

He's definitely a huge Jaguar, no doubt about it. But measurements won't lie, if she can present those they'd be much more useful. As Edu said, he didn't notice any difference but it may be different. 
I'd also be curious what protocol they used this time around. 
In regards to Lopez v Joker, I don't think the angles will allow a proper comparison but Joker is certainly in his league regardless.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Funny I just posted the comparison between him, Lopez, and Slamlet on the size comparison thread:

*This image is copyright of its original author

She told me that the first time they captured Joker it was very cold and they were trying to hurry because he was waking up from the anesthesia so she isn't sure that the measurements were taken with complete accuracy. The second time they prioritized getting his weight so I don't think they took all his measurements this time, besides perhaps his total body length. 

Edu was not present on this capture but she was, and she said he likely grew bigger, maybe the measurements from his first capture were inputted in the file because they could not get them all the second time, and that's why he didn't notice a difference. Overall both jaguars are clearly in the same weight class regardless, both being enormous, but to me, Joker just seems much ripped and muscular, if you look at his chest girth you can see he looks broader than Lopez and Slamlet, he's a special cat.

But Edu was present for the first capture and provided detail of the measurement protocol. And oddly enough he said the same thing about others in the program taking measurements incorrectly and described issues between individuals when taking measurements. And while Joker may or may not of increased in size from the first capture, she wouldn't know unless she was involved in the first capture or could compare measurements and protocol used. 

In regards to comparing their chest, you need to take into account limb position. Notice Lopez and Slamlet both have their limbs in crisscrossing angles which opens up your clavicle to drop your arms down further in a slot. Imagine sleeping on your side, if you were to sleep with your arms in their position, your chest would sink down but if you were to position your top arm on your hip you would have an increased width since your chest would be more upright.

Lilian was present on the first capture as well, she saw him both times and she does think he may have gotten bigger, that's why she mentioned Felino so much to me because she wanted to emphasize how much jaguars can fluctuate in size from one season to another. You can see Felino was dwarfing one of the largest females from the area.

About the arms, the angle certainly favors joker but the muscle definition doesn't lie, IMO he is easily the most muscular and ripped cat out of the three.

She was present when Edu captured him and made measurements?
I believe he was captured twice before this last time, correct? Reply