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About methods, measurements, errors, baits and the art of debating
About methods, measurements, errors, baits and the art of debating
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About methods, measurements, errors, baits and the art of debating
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 (09-20-2015, 07:01 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: We reach the peace!!! That is great, and I want to invite to all the posters here to be witness of the end of this dark moment. a - On the results of the debate so far Based on what I saw, I would get to full marks, my friend. Excellent research, a very nice drawing explaining the topic discussed in a nutshell and even better decisions. You definitely deserved your stripes right there. It takes two to tango. As Waves immediately agreed on the proposal to sell the guns, he will get another star as well. We're now ready to start the debate on methods, measurements and reliability using arguments only. This is how it should be done and it took us a few days only. b - Whereabouts As announced in my previous post, I was out. My destination was a dense forest somewhere in Germany. Old friends, lots of music and no clocks and modern devices anywhere. One of them is as interested in big cats and bears as we are. To say he is well informed would be an understatement. When I want to talk tiger, I contact him. This year, he told me there's a rescue center close to where he lives. He knows the director and invited me to come over. I might just do that, as it could be another opportunity to measure and weigh a few more. c - The effect of your work The research definitely had an effect, Guate. In more than one way, I would say. You explained the method used by today's biologists and while doing so you also made it clear there are two ways to measure a big cat in a straight line. As a poster interested in big cats and measurements, I was very happy you did. As co-owner of a forum, I concluded you definitely are an asset. I'll talk to Sanjay about a fitting follow-up. d - Apology The work you did cleared the confusion regarding methods, biologists and big cats. You made it very clear biologists do measure tigers in the proper way. The result is confidence has been restored. Another result is those who expressed doubts have no option but to apologize. I'll pave the way and say I admit I wasn't quite sure about a few things in the department of methods. My sincere apologies to those affected in one way or another. e - However It seems a respected biologist recently said the documents published on tigers in Russia are so clear that even those struggling to write their own name should be able to read them. As an average member of the Bandar Log, I mean the general public, I plead guilty to inability in most departments. I also agree an IQ of 80 and counting isn't going to help. In spite of that, I have to say I, regarding the document on morphological parameters of Amur tigers, still didn't succeed in finding a link between the Appendix (referring to the famous instruction on how to measure a big cat) and the method actually used to measure them tigers. Zilch. It also is a fact the emails I read were a bit confusing, if not outright misleading. I mean, if Guate got it right (referring to the drawing he posted), Amur tigers were not measured 'over' or 'along' the curves of the body. The animal was first stretched. The length was then measured in an almost straight, with the tape pressed to the body at a few points that could be considered as anchors (tip of nose, top of skull, insertion of the tail and the last bone of the tail). I would agree the distance measured isn't a perfect straight line, but to say it was 'along the curves' isn't even close. The method used, based on what I saw and read, definitely differs from the method used in northern India a century ago, where tigers were measured 'over curves'. Measuring was quite a ritual in those days in northern India. It was done with utmost care. So much so, that all authorities familiar with methods agreed the difference with the other method ('between pegs') was between 2-5 inches only. This means the difference between both methods in Russia is definitely less than that. Based on my experience with measuring, I would get to 1-3 inches or less. My guess is less. Based on the photographs I saw and the conclusions specialists got to (I didn't post the results, but will at some stage), there's no question the Sauraha tiger was over 10 feet straight. All in all, one could say the description of the method used to measure tigers in Russia (referring to both the documents published and the mails posted in different forums) was, ehh, somewhat inadequate? I propose to turn to India. My guess, based on what I read, is Chitwan tigers were measured in a similar way as those in Russia. But Dr. Tamang said they were measured 'along' or 'over' the curves'. Sunquist wasn't there when Tamang measured tigers, so who's right? Let's move to Nagarahole. If we use the explanation offered by Ullas Karanth, the conclusion is Nagarahole tigers were measured 'over' or 'along' the curves of the body. But Ullas Karanth also wrote that tigers in Nagarahole, Chitwan and Russia were measured in the same way ('along the curves'). Were Nagarahole tigers really measured 'along' or 'over' the curves, or was Ullas Karanth also inaccurate in his description? To find out more, one has to know if the biologists involved in projects in Russia, Nepal and India had contact with each other. If affirmative, the question is if they used similar concepts and definitions and if the method selected was applied in the same way. Warsaw, again, found the answer to the question. Today, he posted about the link between Sunquist and Ullas Karanth. I now no longer doubt tigers in Russia, Nepal and India were (and are) measured in the same way. The method used, however, doesn't compare to the method used a century ago in India in that they don't measure tigers 'along' or 'over the curves', but in an almost straight line and, most important, at the correct height (where the tail, which has to be stretched, leaves the body). This means that adult male tigers in the regions mentioned above average between 9.8-9.9 in total length, measured in an almost straight line. We could deduct 1-3 inches to be sure, but there's no question they are long. Compared to reliable records I have of tigers measured in a straight line a century ago (northern India and Nepal), they more or less compare. Today's tigers could be a bit longer, but one has to remember that in the old method, 'between pegs', the distance between tip of nose and tip of tail often was measured on the ground (floor) and not at the correct height. This means the distance between the insertion of the tail to the floor would have to be added to the total length to get the correct length. It wouldn't affect the head and body length, but tails would have been longer. The main difference with a century ago isn't length, but weight. One has, however, to remember that samples were smallish and in most cases no information on baits and stomachs was offered. However. To deduct 14-19 kg. from every average just to make sure they were empty, as Wave proposed, seems a bit over the top. The Maharajah of Cooch Behar definitely made arrangements, meaning tigers most probably were baited in the regions they visited, but quite many of those shot were not. Read his book. There's no question that tigers of large subspecies are a bit longer than lions of large subspecies. Also remember the Kruger lions Stevenson Hamilton measured, although quite many compared to Indian tigers, averaged a tad under 9 feet in total length. The conclusion is tigers in India, Nepal and Russia really are a bit longer. They also often have more muscular limbs. Lions in some regions, on the other hand, are as tall or taller (although I have serious doubts regarding India and Nepal) and they also have (absolutely and relatively) longer skulls. Although exceptional animals of both species more or less compare in head and body length and weight, tigers, in spite of their low numbers, do it more often. One could say Botswana, Nogorogoro and Zimbabwe male lions compare to most male Indian tigers and be about right, but how about the giant tigers seen just south of the Himalayas every now and then? We have to accept we just don't know and chances are the questions we have will not be answered any time soon. Returning to the object of this paragraph. What I'm saying is there was a lot of confusion on the method used to measure tigers in Russia, Nepal and India. A few days ago, the mist disappeared. Not because of the documents and the mails written by biologists, but because a few posters interested in answers found a gap in what has to be described as a barrage of inadequate descriptions. They were the ones who got to the correct conclusion. Not others. This is a fact those who expressed a few doubts as to 'forums' can't deny. To wind it up. Biologists involved in tiger research and documents are much respected. To say they are the ones who saved the tiger would be very close. The documents produced are much appreciated as well. It is, however, a fact those who read them, IQ-wise, struggle to get to 80 in some cases. It would be appreciated if biologists involved in documents could anticipate to a degree. If we can settle for 70, most problems would be solved. e - Warsaw One more thing, Guate. I noticed your proposal regarding peace talks didn't include Warsaw. I would advice to include him. Posters do not have to be on excellent terms with others to contribute to a debate. A productive debate often is a result of antagonists opposing each other. If some of them point to a direction you, for some reason, excluded, you are forced to prove them wrong. Could be more productive than you think. Example 1. Warsaw posted on Amur tigers, curves and a Russian document from the eighties supposedly used by biologists working in Russia. When confronted with the Appendix on how to measure a big cat, he said it was primarily used to find the insertion of the tail (...). Apart from the tail, the tiger was measured over curves. Although his conclusion wasn't quite satisfactory, if not very unlikely, Wave decided to support him. I saw honey. He added Chitwan and Nagarahole tigers to the giant curves Warsaw found in Russia and then went public. Amur tigers were all but dwarfed. You and PC decided to react. Work was done. After the exchange of large caliber shells, arguments were spotted and in the end they proved to be decisive. Although the result was most interesting, we can't forget about the start. If I remember correctly, PC decided to talk to Warsaw first. When confronted with miniature tigers and curves never seen before, he came back and told us. The rest is history. What I'm saying is the result of the debate wasn't a result of research of those who agreed. It was a result of interaction between opponents and there's no doubt Warsaw delivered, if only by pointing to the wrong direction. Example 2. Today, I read Warsaw's post on Sunquist and Ullas Karanth. He found the missing link, meaning there's no doubt they are connected. Warsaw too can't explain the, ehhh, somewhat perculiar statements on methods offered by Ullas Karanth in his book (not to say he turned the world upside down), but it is very likely he and Sunquist used the same concept and also applied the method selected in the same way. Sunquist, in an email, also wrote he was present when a few Nagarahole tigers were measured. He didn't say he saw giant curves. This is what I was looking for. The conclusion is Nagarahole tigers were measured in the same way as those in Chitwan and Russia. The only problem left is Tamang, who was in Chitwan before Sunquist arrived. Tamang wrote Chitwan tigers were measured 'over' or 'along' curves, but that's what they said in Nagarahole and Russia as well. My guess is Tamang measured tigers in the same way as Sunquist, but we need a bit more to exclude interpretations. I know Warsaw and tigers do not quite agree. That's just the way it is. I accept it will result in the occasional double standard and a few impressive curves every now and then, but every disadvantage, as shown above, has an advantage. You know we, ehhh, had a few problems in the past, but these were solved. I wouldn't say we was cooperating, but there's no animosity and he posted a lot of good information over the years. Bears mostly, but tigers were not entirely forgotten. If you and PC do not acknowledge he contributed to the debate on tigers and methods, animosity and grudges will always be close. Not what we want. I propose to pay your respects and solve the problem. |
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