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08-16-2020, 04:27 AM( This post was last modified: 04-13-2021, 01:14 AM by DinoFan83 )
(07-27-2020, 03:25 PM)Mstr293 Wrote: I have some objections with your claims here:
"using GetAwayTrike's skeletal, Giganotosaurus would be the larger theropod based on known specimens, by well over a ton" - I've seen GetAwayTrike's take on the Giga. Here's a link where him and Franoys are debating about the accuracy of his estimates:
1: Even GAT has doubts on the accuracy of his claims. His estimations are just as open to criticism as Hartman's or Vitamin Imagination's (my favorite Artist). There's even a reply there that has a good point take on MUCPv-95's supposed "larger than Sue" estimations (by TriceratopsHorridus):
[font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]actually agree with you that an 8% larger MUCPv-95 is not realistic for this skeletal; sometime after making that top comment I came across a GDI for this skeletal (here it is, recommended density 0.915,: [color=var(--G4)][font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]https://i.imgur.com/wK1ESRN.png[/font]) and 6.5% larger MUCPv-95 is already about 9 tonnes. If a relatively cursorial theropod (like Giganotosaurus) were to exceed that, it wouldn't make much sense from an evolutionary standpoint because if you're much over 9 tonnes you're not gonna be a very fast runner, and you have larger demands, thus you need more food than you can catch.[/font][/color]
[font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]That was mainly thrown in there because, based on everything other than mass (which I didn't know would have implications for the skeletal when I made that comment), 8% MUCPv-95 is still on the table but nobody ever uses it today.[/font]
If you think about it, Gigas are known to be predators who is known for it's serrated teeth (known to bleed out it's prey) and very fast locomotion (about 32kmph) compared to the T-Rex. The former indicating a very patient, high-enduranced predator. It wouldn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint for such animal to be bulky as opposed to being streamlined as Hartman and Franoys claim it to be. That 9 Ton estimate from GAT is a reach in my opinion. Oh, well! Hopefully, more research shows up.
2: "Scott Hartman is using Sue as the representative of the entire species and comparing it partly to MUCPv-Ch1" -
3: Sue's the 2nd largest T-Rex specimen next to Scotty.
2: While there are only 2 specimen from the Giga's part, MUCPv-Ch1 is literally the 2nd largest (also, smallest) Giganotosaurus specimen. So I say, the comparison is fair. Until more proof are discovered, it's wise to zip our lips on this issue.
4: "Even if Sue was hypothetically larger than MUCPv-95, that wouldn't necessarily mean Tyrannosaurus was the larger animal as a species - we would, as previously stated, need to look at the mean mass of both species based on all specimens of both species to determine which was larger as it is a far better sample than merely maximum vs maximum" - It's not her fault Giganotosaurus lacks new specimen. Speaking of, the problem with claiming that Gigas are the larger animals compared to the Rexes is due to the lack of specimen a.k.a. proof that this is indeed the case. We need more data to confirm that whether or not MUCPv-Ch1 and MUCPv-95 are the largest, shortest or average size of the animal? We're all really depending heavily/blindly on the estimates, and I am not liking that! It's very unscientific!
5: As paleontologists, it is their job to be as accurate as possible and avoid relying too much on said estimations. T-Rex is currently the legitimate biggest theropod in terms of mass because as you said, it has the most specimen and data of all the theropods we've discovered. We can easily calculate the dimensions of the T-Rex holotypes. This is currently impossible with Giga's case. It can be changed, but without sufficient data from the Giganotosaurus' part, we can't rush to conclusions. We don't want another BS spread by the media. People still believe that Jurassic park 3 Spinosaurus is legit dinosaur even to this day, you can look up YouTube comments if you don't believe me.
I can finally see this post! So I guess I can respond to it.
1: Okay, first off, I'd just like to note a few things:
-That 7.53 tonne GDI for GetAwayTrike's edited skeletal has, to my knowledge, been estimated to match more conservative estimations for MUCPv-Ch1. As you can see, it's 12.32 meters long (well within the most common estimations of 12.2-12.4 meters), instead of using GAT's original estimation (which isn't necessarily incorrect, mind you, as the material needs a better description badly and until then more or less everything is on the table for Giganotosaurus save the obviously outlandish material such as 180+ cm skull lengths and 12-14 plus tonne sizes).
Also, that TriceratopsHorridus person is myself; I have since then been convinced otherwise as there is very little different between the metabolism and speed of a 9 tonne Giganotosaurus and a 9.49+ tonne Giganotosaurus, and the animals Giganotosaurus (and carcharodontosaurids in general) were eating were nowhere near as fast as the prey of, say, tyrannosaurs, so I believe they would have an easier time getting to larger sizes than the better studied tyrannosaurids because they are less cursorial.
BTW, for what it's worth, there are some more things you may want to consider if you didn't see me address them in the above posts:
-SpinoInWonderland's skeletal also produced a GDI result roughly coherent with GetAwayTrike's. That is what they have told me.
-The often quoted mass of 6.8 tonnes (based on Hartman) is very likely not enough, because his skeletal takes the incomplete scapula as complete and the chest is very shallow as a result. Correcting this, the mass goes up to the ballpark of SIW and GAT GDI's.
2: The issue with using Sue (or Scotty) to compare to MUCPv-Ch1 is that they are by far the largest and oldest in a sample of well over 30, while MUCPv-Ch1 is the smallest of 2 specimens, and we don't know how old it is or whether it's an adult or not.
By your reasoning, if we compare smallest and smallest, we could compare, say, Bucky (3.5-4 tonnes), B-rex (4.5 tonnes), or USNM 6183 (2.7-3 tonnes) to the Giganotosaurus holotype as they are some of the smallest adults of Tyrannosaurus, just as MUCPv-Ch1 is the smallest of the 2 Giganotosaurus specimens.
4: It's impossible to know which species was truly larger and it may never be. However, considering that even with the very poor sample size of Giganotosaurus and the large one for Tyrannosaurus, that the average of both Giganotosaurus specimens is 2.51-3.23 tonnes higher than the average for 30 Tyrannosaurus specimens, and that the Giganotosaurus holotype alone matches or outsizes just about all adult Tyrannosaurus specimens, that in my opinion suggests Giganotosaurus to be larger with the specimens we have.
5: I do not agree that Tyrannosaurus is the largest theropod; Carcharodontosaurus, Giganotosaurus, Mapusaurus, Tyrannotitan, and Spinosaurus, depending on interpretation could very well have equalled or surpassed it.
As for the size of the holotypes, I believe CM 9380 is somewhat smaller than MUCPv-Ch1 - it's about 6 tonnes (Larramendi and Molina 2016) to 7 tonnes (SpinoInWonderland GDI I posted in the Tyrannosaurus thread) compared to 7.53-8.17 tonnes for MUCPv-Ch1.
6: Trust me when I say that I know that guy well and I strongly disagree with his views on giant theropod sizes.
One last thing: I'd like to post some corrections for Greg Paul's estimations for Giganotosaurus that I forgot to earlier. On his website, he estimates the Giganotosaurus holotype at 6.85 tonnes. However, there are 2 issues with his skeletal likely underscoring the mass: -He has used a specific gravity of 0.85 when it should have been about 0.915 following Hartman's 2013 GDI analysis. -In his skeletal, the preserved scapula is taken as complete when it isn't (the same issue that plagues Hartman's skeletal), thus making the chest much shallower than it would be. The correction factor, as I have went over in the numerous different points and posts above, is 6.8 to 7.53 tonnes. Correcting both of these, Greg Paul's skeletal of Giganotosaurus goes to 8.17 tonnes for MUCPv-Ch1, which would then be 10.29 tonnes for MUCPv-95 and the average of both of them being 9.23 tonnes if we were to use his skeletal as the base.
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EDIT: Updated correction for Greg Paul's skeletal is below:
Quote:On his website, he estimates the G. carolinii holotype at 6850 kg. However, there are 2 issues with his skeletal likely underscoring the mass:
-He has used a specific gravity of 0.85 when it should have been a mean of about 0.97 following Larramendi & Paul (2020). -In his skeletal, the preserved scapula is taken as complete when it isn't (the same issue that plagues Hartman's skeletal), thus making the chest much shallower than it would be. As I have went over in this thread, the correction factor for that based on SpinoInWonderland's GDI (multiply volume by 0.97) of GetAwayTrike's skeletal is (the percentage of the old-density mass) 6800 to 7530 kg.
Correcting both of these, Greg Paul's skeletal of Giganotosaurus goes to 8660 kg for MUCPv-Ch1, which would then be 11530 kg for MUCPv-95 and the average of both of them being 10100 kg if we were to use his skeletal as the base. For comparison, SpinoInWonderland's above GDI suggests a total size range of 7980-10620 kg, with a 9300 kg average, and his GDI of his own skeletal roughly matches GetAwayTrike's.
The mean of these three, which I will be assuming, is 8320-11100 kg, average of 9700 kg.
For length, we have ranges of 12.45-13.7 meters respectively, and 12.3-13.5 meters respectively. I will be assuming the mean of these as well, which is roughly 12.4-13.7 meters. This gives us a total average size of 13.1 meters and 9700 kg for the 2 known specimens of Giganotosaurus.
And even these are almost certainly underestimates. They use Scott Hartman's model for dorsal view, which as per post 19 of this thread probably has a ribcage 9.9% too narrow.
