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Lions of Timbavati
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Up-close and personal with one of the two River pride males at Ingwelala Game Reserve
Photo credits: Ray  *This image is copyright of its original author
Zigzag Mbiri male & Birmingham pride yesterday
Credit - Theron  *This image is copyright of its original author
(08-18-2023, 03:40 PM)Zigzag Wrote: Zigzag Mbiri male & Birmingham pride yesterday Why is there so much inbreeding in the timbavati/ manyleti area the Mbiris males with their fathers natal pride the tintswalo males with their natal pride the northern black Dam males with their fathers brothers pride which is their I think cousins the 7 avocas adding the 2 xikukutsu males and many other I believe (08-18-2023, 07:20 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote:(08-18-2023, 03:40 PM)Zigzag Wrote: Zigzag Mbiri male & Birmingham pride yesterday I, personally, believe that Nature takes into account such instances, as they are bound to occur, and believe it has little to no affect on the offspring. As an example, I always point to Loonkito, a wild male killed by humans just before he turned 20, as he had been dominant over the same pride for so long that I read he had actually bred with his daughters, and possibly his granddaughters who were also his daughters. I have not read of any troubles within that pride from this happening. 
You can get away with it once or twice. But each generation will be more genetically inferior and vulnerable than the previous one. At one point it reaches a point where it prevents the group from coping with a new challenge and the entire population is put at risk. Even when things look fine on the surface, a vulnerability to a specific illness may spread through the entire population. Resulting in a mass dieoff once that illness itself appears.
Nature typically has a lot of safeguards against this. So if this happens a lot in a reserve it means there is something severely wrong that prevents new generations from migrating in- or outward or older generations from being killed or otherwise taken out of the gene pool when they should. It may be wise for the reserve to relocate lions to keep the population healthy or look into opening routes to other reserves if possible. (08-18-2023, 09:05 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: You can get away with it once or twice. But each generation will be more genetically inferior and vulnerable than the previous one. At one point it reaches a point where it prevents the group from coping with a new challenge and the entire population is put at risk. Even when things look fine on the surface, a vulnerability to a specific illness may spread through the entire population. Resulting in a mass dieoff once that illness itself appears. The othawa male with the mhangenis and the birminghams with the nkuhumas as well and are the northern black dam males older than the southern black dam males? (08-18-2023, 09:05 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: You can get away with it once or twice. But each generation will be more genetically inferior and vulnerable than the previous one. At one point it reaches a point where it prevents the group from coping with a new challenge and the entire population is put at risk. Even when things look fine on the surface, a vulnerability to a specific illness may spread through the entire population. Resulting in a mass dieoff once that illness itself appears. I am not arguing with, or even debating you, this is a legitimate question. Are there any studies, or other proof that this is the case in wild animals, namely lions? If there are, I'd love to read them, to better educate myself on something I've often wondered about. I am not aware of any studies on the matter, and can only point to Loonkito's pride as an example, where, as you stated, on the surface all seems well. I have even mentioned in posts about him, that if there was ever a pride that could be used for such a study, then I cannot think of a better example. I doubt such an example will occur again in the wild, certainly not in our lifetimes, if ever, where a single male is dominant for such an extended period of time over the same pride. I cannot even think of another example of such an event, certainly not in the last few decades, none that I am aware of. Even in a closed environment, like a zoo, they frequently move their males around to avoid such occurrences. (08-18-2023, 09:49 PM)BA0701 Wrote: I am not arguing with, or even debating you, this is a legitimate question. Are there any studies, or other proof that this is the case in wild animals, namely lions? If there are, I'd love to read them, to better educate myself on something I've often wondered about. I am not aware of any studies on the matter, and can only point to Loonkito's pride as an example, where, as you stated, on the surface all seems well. I have even mentioned in posts about him, that if there was ever a pride that could be used for such a study, then I cannot think of a better example. I doubt such an example will occur again in the wild, certainly not in our lifetimes, if ever, where a single male is dominant for such an extended period of time over the same pride. I cannot even think of another example of such an event, certainly not in the last few decades, none that I am aware of. Even in a closed environment, like a zoo, they frequently move their males around to avoid such occurrencesThere have been, the ones I know of are specific to lions of Ngorongoro where inbreeding is pretty much unavoidable. https://conbio.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/d....tb00127.x https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w...WjFlv8FEj0 I hope the links work. There are also a few others about. Some 'light' reading, haha. (08-18-2023, 10:06 PM)Wyld@Heart Wrote:(08-18-2023, 09:49 PM)BA0701 Wrote: I am not arguing with, or even debating you, this is a legitimate question. Are there any studies, or other proof that this is the case in wild animals, namely lions? If there are, I'd love to read them, to better educate myself on something I've often wondered about. I am not aware of any studies on the matter, and can only point to Loonkito's pride as an example, where, as you stated, on the surface all seems well. I have even mentioned in posts about him, that if there was ever a pride that could be used for such a study, then I cannot think of a better example. I doubt such an example will occur again in the wild, certainly not in our lifetimes, if ever, where a single male is dominant for such an extended period of time over the same pride. I cannot even think of another example of such an event, certainly not in the last few decades, none that I am aware of. Even in a closed environment, like a zoo, they frequently move their males around to avoid such occurrencesThere have been, the ones I know of are specific to lions of Ngorongoro where inbreeding is pretty much unavoidable. Excellent, this will be very helpful. Thank you so much for this, my friend, cheers! (08-18-2023, 10:06 PM)Wyld@Heart Wrote:(08-18-2023, 09:49 PM)BA0701 Wrote: I am not arguing with, or even debating you, this is a legitimate question. Are there any studies, or other proof that this is the case in wild animals, namely lions? If there are, I'd love to read them, to better educate myself on something I've often wondered about. I am not aware of any studies on the matter, and can only point to Loonkito's pride as an example, where, as you stated, on the surface all seems well. I have even mentioned in posts about him, that if there was ever a pride that could be used for such a study, then I cannot think of a better example. I doubt such an example will occur again in the wild, certainly not in our lifetimes, if ever, where a single male is dominant for such an extended period of time over the same pride. I cannot even think of another example of such an event, certainly not in the last few decades, none that I am aware of. Even in a closed environment, like a zoo, they frequently move their males around to avoid such occurrencesThere have been, the ones I know of are specific to lions of Ngorongoro where inbreeding is pretty much unavoidable. I only just began reading this, and already finding it very interesting and helpful, it is providing so much information about the Crater Lions, such as there has not been any new immigration to the crater, by lions, in the past 25 years, stating "All members of the current Crater population are descended from only 15 founders". Incredible! 
The inbreeding in these areas are interesting indeed. Hell the inbreeding in the specific Matimba line is crazy.
Mbiris had cubs with their aunt and mated with their Mbiri sisters. And Skorros, brothers of Mbiris, have cubs with the Mbiri's Mayambula daughters, their nieces. In SS it happens too but nowhere as bad. I have a hunch tho that Kambulas will eventually oust PCM and take over Mangheni pride. 
Inbreeding in the Greater Kruger area has been ongoing among lions for decades, and I think this is the result of a deeper complex problem. It's very sad, because for many years these lions would have had no choice in the matter as the gates were closed off. Occasionally we do get to see an exchange between lions in Greater Kruger and Kruger Park, but it's not happening often enough to create healthier genetics among these western prides. There is probably multiple reasons why this is, and it could have to do with low prey density near the borders, or the borders themselves are not open and accessible enough for these prides and coalitions. What we do know is that there is still a clear separation between the two sides, and it is still affecting the lions to this day.
This is also likely why the leucistic gene occurs naturally most often in Timbavati than any other place. A lot of the Timbavati prides share this gene and are either closely or distantly related. |
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