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N'waswitshaka males
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 (04-18-2022, 10:41 PM)WildRev Wrote: @the_best_tracker_on_safari I hope Ubuso will stay ok. Maybe his limp is just of worsening of the one he already has, which is not a big problem since he is used to that limp after having it for several months.  (04-18-2022, 11:55 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: OE was always first to mate, since Southern Pride and Styx's, its not all about size.He was as first seen mating with Southern pride female, throught as far as I remember Amahle was the one first seen mating with Styx females. Also since overtaking Mala Mala Wide Nose male started to poking his head up so I definitelly wouldn't say that Orange Eye male is a clear dominant within a coalition. Personally I would assume that Amahle and Orange Eye should be sort of even and on top through situation definitelly is not clear. Some for example are arguing that Wide Nose male is the most dominant...  (04-19-2022, 05:20 PM)Potato Wrote: He was as first seen mating with Southern pride female, throught as far as I remember Amahle was the one first seen mating with Styx females. Also since overtaking Mala Mala Wide Nose male started to poking his head up so I definitelly wouldn't say that Orange Eye male is a clear dominant within a coalition. Personally I would assume that Amahle and Orange Eye should be sort of even and on top through situation definitelly is not clear. Some for example are arguing that Wide Nose male is the most dominant... OE was seen first mating with SP, Styx and Kambulas (from what is filmed). I dont think theres clear cut who is most dominant, that changes as in any coalition, but OE looks to be most "aggressive" of them.
Amahle mating with Kambula female
https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=3132299997084949
Wide Nose last week at Umkumbe, not in great condition, 3 males got him good on that leg, he can barely put pressure on it, hope he can recover, its crucial for him to keep with his brothers and prides for food:
 (04-19-2022, 08:05 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Wide Nose last week at Umkumbe, not in great condition, 3 males got him good on that leg, he can barely put pressure on it, hope he can recover, its crucial for him to keep with his brothers and prides for food: To some extent a good pride will try to accommodate the injured. A great pride will kill an animal right in front of them or drag it to them. Hopefully his pride will meet him half way or more with some food. (04-19-2022, 09:35 PM)1ofCourage Wrote: To some extent a good pride will try to accommodate the injured. A great pride will kill an animal right in front of them or drag it to them. Thats not how lions work, nobody will help him, if he cant follow his pride/brothers he will die, thats how it is. 
If it comes to lions within the same coalition or pride. The group will take care of its weak, ill and sick provided the help needed is reasonable if it comes to food and fear of sickness.
But they wont wait. If you cant keep up, you are on your own. If it comes to the relation between male lions and their pride. Things can be even more colder. Males are seen more as a troublesome necessity that comes and go by a pride. They aren't bonded with them as much as they are with each other. So if a male gets too sick, he is quickly seen as a useless burden.
04-20-2022, 02:18 AM
( This post was last modified: 04-20-2022, 02:33 AM by 1ofCourage
Edit Reason: need to
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(04-19-2022, 10:09 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(04-19-2022, 09:35 PM)1ofCourage Wrote: To some extent a good pride will try to accommodate the injured. A great pride will kill an animal right in front of them or drag it to them. On the Liuwa Plain, the lioness "Lady Liuwa" got old was sick and blind and the other lioness that she originally was paired with killed a wildebeest, dragged it to her for food, and walked back 10 km to the rest of the pride. I've seen PLENTY of pictures and videos of lionesses killing prey and leaving it for an injured lion. 
I've seen that video you speak of with the lioness bringing the blind lioness food to survive. Thats incredible. But the bond is so much stronger with lionesses. I've mostly read and seen videos and pics, for example; Nsuku in Sabi Sands, Lipstick in the Mara, Cesare Notch; that they become a burden and either get bullied off the kill (most rescent Scar Tumbella) or left behind and starve. Sucks but that's how it is.
(04-20-2022, 12:25 PM)BigLion39 Wrote: I've seen that video you speak of with the lioness bringing the blind lioness food to survive. Thats incredible. But the bond is so much stronger with lionesses. I've mostly read and seen videos and pics, for example; Nsuku in Sabi Sands, Lipstick in the Mara, Cesare Notch; that they become a burden and either get bullied off the kill (most rescent Scar Tumbella) or left behind and starve. Sucks but that's how it is. I guess it depends on a lot of factors. Lions can be heartless and indifferent too, as they say, yet there are exceptions. I was just sensing a lot of negativity in the posts and although these people know their lions very well, I hold out hope until the end for my own sake. Lion-watching is definitely not for the faint of heart because the truth may be a bitter pill. (04-20-2022, 07:31 PM)1ofCourage Wrote: I guess it depends on a lot of factors. Lions can be heartless and indifferent too, as they say, yet there are exceptions. I was just sensing a lot of negativity in the posts and although these people know their lions very well, I hold out hope until the end for my own sake. Its not negativity, lion (animal) world in general is brutal, "fairly tails" and "happy end" stories are very rare. Lions act on instinct, they first care for themselves for survival, they dont have rational or logic thinking like we humans. Idk about that "Lady Liuwa" lioness, i didnt see it, but is that raw footage or documentary?? Documentaries can be edited and missleading for drama pourposes, or if it is true, then is very, i mean very rare case and i have never encountered something like that, that 1 lion brings another food. (04-20-2022, 07:59 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(04-20-2022, 07:31 PM)1ofCourage Wrote: I guess it depends on a lot of factors. Lions can be heartless and indifferent too, as they say, yet there are exceptions. I was just sensing a lot of negativity in the posts and although these people know their lions very well, I hold out hope until the end for my own sake. You know what? It is negative to see the worst outcome in every situation. I understand the rationale part you said, be we are not lions, so we can reason with a look toward more of the possibilities. Lions rely on instinct for sure, but it's not always predictable either. Lady Liuwa was raw footage, eye witnesses and a documentary. I have no reason to edit it more myself, so I just accept what they said about what happened. Lionesses provide others with food. That's what they do, and sometimes they even appear like they care for each other. For example, male lions letting only the cubs eat, females dropping a kill off for a pride member, and members of different prides working together. It's all happened. Fairy tales? No. Happy endings? Yes. And it's not common, but that's why we are amazed. See the meal left for an injured male lion below? It's just what was needed.  (04-20-2022, 08:53 PM)1ofCourage Wrote:Very interesting discussion.(04-20-2022, 07:59 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(04-20-2022, 07:31 PM)1ofCourage Wrote: I guess it depends on a lot of factors. Lions can be heartless and indifferent too, as they say, yet there are exceptions. I was just sensing a lot of negativity in the posts and although these people know their lions very well, I hold out hope until the end for my own sake. I would like to add that although Tr1x24 is right about animals acting on instincts, I believe we humans underestimate animals because I have seen animal behaviors going beyond instincts such as Liuwa lioness, Makhulu, Notch among felines and without mention other species. Therefore, I would not be surprised if in the future, it is determined that animals have a little more than pure instinct but of course nothing like human intelligence. Since our communication with them is so poor, our comprehension of animal behavior remains like an iceberg.
I think there is no concrete evidence for some kind of human "mind" that animals don't possess. The whole concept directly violates various scientific ideas such as the Copernicus rule and the theory of evolution. The idea of animals being purely instinct driven machines compared with the thinking rational man that has shed itself of any instinct only holds up if you never spend any time with either animals or humans.
Just like we, they have to weigh options, plan, learn and adapt to perform successful hunts. A lion isn't born a skilled hunter or fighter. And just like them, we are driven by carnal desires to feed, copulate and protect our young. Ultimately all our process is nothing more than tools to satisfy our base instincts. That being said, animals do think a lot different than us. The mind is ultimately nothing more than just another organ to evolve and most animals split millions of years ago from our evolutionary tree and developed far different means to deal with life. We have to be extremely wary of anthropormation or projecting our ideals on them and the wild just doesn't offer the same luxuries as we have. Not to mention our information on animal life is highly generalised and incomplete. So we see lots of behaviour that makes perfect sense when looking at the wants and needs of a individual animal, but directly violates our ideas how they should behave as a species. |
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