There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
12-15-2019, 09:52 PM( This post was last modified: 12-15-2019, 09:58 PM by JurassicDD )
(12-15-2019, 09:34 PM)DinoFan83 Wrote: Just a size comp. Chillax.
Anyhow, here's another good one: BYU 12183 Triceratops (scaled to 2.5 meter skull length, 8.6 tonnes using this skeletal) and UCMP 128561 Triceratops (scaled to 2.7 meters skull length, 11 tonnes using this skeletal) vs Dreadnoughtus holotype (26 meters TL, 46 tonnes, still a juvenile). Scalebar is 1 meter, Triceratops skeletal is by Hartman while UCMP 128561's head is by Eofauna, Dreadnoughtus is by the paper describing it.
It's just inaccurate information chillax
Stop trying to mislead people with your posts.
And why did you ignore my comments regarding you oversizing Mapusaurus ? is it because you don't like it ? its pretty simple lad the more you ignore me and the countless others that have told you non stop about the mistakes (that are clearly not mistakes at this point) you keep repeating the more I'm going to keep going correcting you.
I'm going to start posting a disclaimer on everything you post stating you have a reputation with inaccurate scaling and you tend to often use outdated information to suit your views and you have a bias regarding Tyrannosaurus this can all be backed up by either users on the world of animals or the Theropoda discord. Or you can listen to the countless people that have told you about the stuff you are purposely doing.
12-15-2019, 10:38 PM( This post was last modified: 12-15-2019, 10:49 PM by JurassicDD )
(12-15-2019, 10:04 PM)DinoFan83 Wrote: Just to show how big Sauroposeidon is. If you don't like my size comparisons, ignore them. Plain and simple!
But you know it's not about not liking your size comps it's about you downplaying Tyrannosaurus and you using outdated information to help you with this or making the same mistakes over and over and over again. You keep ignoring everyone that picks up on what you are doing. You have once again ignored what i have stated regarding Mapusaurus because you refuse to acknowledge what you are doing because you know exactly what you are doing and that is to downplay the animals you do not like while giving the animals you do like an edge. You always use Franoys best size fit for the largest Mapusaurus the 12.2m 7.6 ton estimate and state that's the average size when it's really not its the maximum size we have right now. You have been told countless times on the discord by people who know much more regarding this stuff than you do and they use the most current data to support there claims. The whole discord is about being as accurate as you can be. You then come on there post something that is really old and outdated or just flat out inaccurate then ignore everything that is said to you and carry on doing the same things over and over again. It would not that bad but you are always on forums posting this stuff and people come on here for accurate info and a lot that you post is often misleading.
You can not be trusted when regarding Tyrannosaurus and your size comps along with most things you say are from outdated information or even outdated work by people who are well known to have a bias against Tyrannosaurus like Brolly. And until you start listening to the people correcting your mistakes I will leave a disclaimer on your posts stating this.
Or you can just start listening to people who clearly know better.
(12-15-2019, 10:04 PM)DinoFan83 Wrote: Just to show how big Sauroposeidon is. If you don't like my size comparisons, ignore them. Plain and simple!
But you know it's not about not liking your size comps it's about you downplaying Tyrannosaurus and you using outdated information to help you with this or making the same mistakes over and over and over again. You keep ignoring everyone that picks up on what you are doing. You have once again ignored what i have stated regarding Mapusaurus because you refuse to acknowledge what you are doing because you know exactly what you are doing and that is to downplay the animals you do not like while giving the animals you do like an edge. You always use Franoys best size fit for the largest Mapusaurus the 12.2m 7.6 ton estimate and state that's the average size when it's really not its the maximum size we have right now. You have been told countless times on the discord by people who know much more regarding this stuff than you do and they use the most current data to support there claims. The whole discord is about being as accurate as you can be. You then come on there post something that is really old and outdated or just flat out inaccurate then ignore everything that is said to you and carry on doing the same things over and over again. It would not that bad but you are always on forums posting this stuff and people come on here for accurate info and a lot that you post is often misleading.
You can not be trusted when regarding Tyrannosaurus and your size comps along with most things you say are from outdated information or even outdated work by people who are well known to have a bias against Tyrannosaurus like Brolly. And until you start listening to the people correcting your mistakes I will leave a disclaimer on your posts stating this.
Or you can just start listening to people who clearly know better.
Could you put here latest information now concerning Tyrannosaurus and Mapusaurus, I mean estimated average size and then latest estimation for biggest size. It might be a good idea to clarify situation now. @GuateGojira could then put also shortly how he see that information and @DinoFan83 can and should say if he disagree and why. I don´t start to even pretend that I would know too well latest and most detailed information concerning these. Still I think, that at this point it would be good to clarify situation and used sources/studies so, that people interested can check things.
If there really is a situation, that maximum sizes are used as averages for some species while from another is used average sizes, that is of course wrong and against it, what wildfact tries to accomplish. I have read some postings and it looks like time to interfere a bit and see if we can get some conclusions.
What I'm doing is taking only 1 of many plausible maximum Mapusaurus estimates. I do this on World of Animals as well but add disclaimers that it's only 1 estimate and it could be bigger or smaller; maybe I should do so here as well?
As for rounding Sue, it's less troublesome, it's functionally the same, and a lot of people know what I mean. SpinoInWonderland also has made a very good point on DeviantArt several times that the density of Tyrannosaurus is probably less than 0.915 that is used for other dinos due to its very robust build and its coelurosaurian nature.
Hopefully this helps to clear things up. If there is the potential for disagreement over my size estimates I can add disclaimers.
Anyhow, back to the main purpose of this thread: Another size chart!
This image illustrates the disparity in robusticity between Diplodocus and Apatosaurus very well. Largest Diplodocus ('Seismosaurus' specimen), 32-34 meters TL, 20 tonnes, vs OMNH 1670 Apatosaurus, 28.3 meters TL, 52 tonnes. Despite being at a ~13-20% length disadvantage, the Apatosaurus is 2.6 times bigger! Top scalebar is 1 meter, both skeletals by Hartman.
Holotype of Tyrannosaurus rex (CM 9380, 11.9 meters, 7.5 tonnes) vs Ruyangosaurus (31 meters TL, 60 tonnes)*. Scalebars are 1 meter, skeletals are by Hartman and Paleo King respectively
*Unfortunately, Ruyangosaurus probably isn't ~100 tonnes like I said earlier. The Deviantart piece has some errors and the animal is probably about ~60 tonnes. Still pretty big though.
(12-16-2019, 07:53 PM)Shadow Wrote: Could you put here latest information now concerning Tyrannosaurus and Mapusaurus, I mean estimated average size and then latest estimation for biggest size. It might be a good idea to clarify situation now. @GuateGojira could then put also shortly how he see that information and @DinoFan83 can and should say if he disagree and why. I don´t start to even pretend that I would know too well latest and most detailed information concerning these. Still I think, that at this point it would be good to clarify situation and used sources/studies so, that people interested can check things.
If there really is a situation, that maximum sizes are used as averages for some species while from another is used average sizes, that is of course wrong and against it, what wildfact tries to accomplish. I have read some postings and it looks like time to interfere a bit and see if we can get some conclusions.
About T. rex, this image from Franoys summarize the best information about FMNH PR 2081 - "Sue" the most complete and biggest of its species, but please take in count that RSM P2523.8 - "Scotty" was more robust and consequently somewhat heavier:
*This image is copyright of its original author
That means that the biggest Tyrannosaurus rex reached over 12 meters long and about 9 tons, the heaviest carnivore dinosaurs known at this moment.
About Mapusaurus roseae, here is the information from Franoys, taken from the original document of 2006, take also in count that the biggest specimen MCF-PVPH-108.145 is actually just a pubic shaft fragment that Curia & Currie (2006) estimated that was 10% greater than those in the holotype of Giganotosaurus carolinii, so it was probably somewhat heavier, but just that:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Interestingly Curia & Currie (2006) estimate that the total length of the Giganotosaurus carolinii holotype reached the 12.2 m, downgrading it size from 12.5 m estimate in the original document of Coria & Salgado (1995). Here is the reconstruction of Franoys about Giganotosaurus so you can have a better idea:
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is the comparison between T. rex and Giganotosaurus of Scott Hartman:
*This image is copyright of its original author
we can see that even the biggest Giganotosaurus specimen was not near the body mass of the biggest T. rex, IF actually was that large, as there is a posibility that the jaw fragment could be just a "regular" Giga with a big mandible:
12-17-2019, 01:50 AM( This post was last modified: 12-17-2019, 01:51 AM by Shadow )
(12-17-2019, 01:04 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(12-16-2019, 07:53 PM)Shadow Wrote: Could you put here latest information now concerning Tyrannosaurus and Mapusaurus, I mean estimated average size and then latest estimation for biggest size. It might be a good idea to clarify situation now. @GuateGojira could then put also shortly how he see that information and @DinoFan83 can and should say if he disagree and why. I don´t start to even pretend that I would know too well latest and most detailed information concerning these. Still I think, that at this point it would be good to clarify situation and used sources/studies so, that people interested can check things.
If there really is a situation, that maximum sizes are used as averages for some species while from another is used average sizes, that is of course wrong and against it, what wildfact tries to accomplish. I have read some postings and it looks like time to interfere a bit and see if we can get some conclusions.
About T. rex, this image from Franoys summarize the best information about FMNH PR 2081 - "Sue" the most complete and biggest of its species, but please take in count that RSM P2523.8 - "Scotty" was more robust and consequently somewhat heavier:
*This image is copyright of its original author
That means that the biggest Tyrannosaurus rex reached over 12 meters long and about 9 tons, the heaviest carnivore dinosaurs known at this moment.
About Mapusaurus roseae, here is the information from Franoys, taken from the original document of 2006, take also in count that the biggest specimen MCF-PVPH-108.145 is actually just a pubic shaft fragment that Curia & Currie (2006) estimated that was 10% greater than those in the holotype of Giganotosaurus carolinii, so it was probably somewhat heavier, but just that:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Interestingly Curia & Currie (2006) estimate that the total length of the Giganotosaurus carolinii holotype reached the 12.2 m, downgrading it size from 12.5 m estimate in the original document of Coria & Salgado (1995). Here is the reconstruction of Franoys about Giganotosaurus so you can have a better idea:
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is the comparison between T. rex and Giganotosaurus of Scott Hartman:
*This image is copyright of its original author
we can see that even the biggest Giganotosaurus specimen was not near the body mass of the biggest T. rex, IF actually was that large, as there is a posibility that the jaw fragment could be just a "regular" Giga with a big mandible:
Looks good and clear if asked from me. Since there has been some dispute, I hope that @DinoFan83 and @JurassicDD give some comment if something to say about these dinosaurs. And of course anyone else if feeling, that there is something relevant to this comparison missing now.
12-17-2019, 01:57 AM( This post was last modified: 12-17-2019, 02:14 AM by JurassicDD )
(12-16-2019, 07:53 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-15-2019, 10:38 PM)JurassicDD Wrote:
(12-15-2019, 10:04 PM)DinoFan83 Wrote: Just to show how big Sauroposeidon is. If you don't like my size comparisons, ignore them. Plain and simple!
But you know it's not about not liking your size comps it's about you downplaying Tyrannosaurus and you using outdated information to help you with this or making the same mistakes over and over and over again. You keep ignoring everyone that picks up on what you are doing. You have once again ignored what i have stated regarding Mapusaurus because you refuse to acknowledge what you are doing because you know exactly what you are doing and that is to downplay the animals you do not like while giving the animals you do like an edge. You always use Franoys best size fit for the largest Mapusaurus the 12.2m 7.6 ton estimate and state that's the average size when it's really not its the maximum size we have right now. You have been told countless times on the discord by people who know much more regarding this stuff than you do and they use the most current data to support there claims. The whole discord is about being as accurate as you can be. You then come on there post something that is really old and outdated or just flat out inaccurate then ignore everything that is said to you and carry on doing the same things over and over again. It would not that bad but you are always on forums posting this stuff and people come on here for accurate info and a lot that you post is often misleading.
You can not be trusted when regarding Tyrannosaurus and your size comps along with most things you say are from outdated information or even outdated work by people who are well known to have a bias against Tyrannosaurus like Brolly. And until you start listening to the people correcting your mistakes I will leave a disclaimer on your posts stating this.
Or you can just start listening to people who clearly know better.
Could you put here latest information now concerning Tyrannosaurus and Mapusaurus, I mean estimated average size and then latest estimation for biggest size. It might be a good idea to clarify situation now. @GuateGojira could then put also shortly how he see that information and @DinoFan83 can and should say if he disagree and why. I don´t start to even pretend that I would know too well latest and most detailed information concerning these. Still I think, that at this point it would be good to clarify situation and used sources/studies so, that people interested can check things.
If there really is a situation, that maximum sizes are used as averages for some species while from another is used average sizes, that is of course wrong and against it, what wildfact tries to accomplish. I have read some postings and it looks like time to interfere a bit and see if we can get some conclusions.
Right with the most current geological studies Tyrannosaurus rex is the most massive theropod currently known. Specimens like Sue or Scotty are both estimated to mass 9 tons Tyrannosaurus is more robustly built than the other big theropods. It has a very wide barrel-shaped torso please just see this link here https://qr.ae/TW8ODw
It explains it all better than I can and everything in that link is up to date and accurate to the latest studies this can all be confirmed on the Theropoda discord. The issue is that some people do not want to accept this. And that user I have gone off on he is just not to be trusted when it comes to anything he says regarding the big theropod dinosaurs and this has been picked up on by a variety of different people on different platforms. He has a reputation of downplaying Tyrannosaurus he has a massive problem regarding the animal. All you need to do is go on to the forum that he is a moderator on or can even just invite you to the Theropoda discord server. And all you would need to do is scroll up and you will see it for yourself or just ask anyone on there what he is like.
He has alienated most of the members on the discord server this is a server that is full of people that use the most current info on these animals they are the best people to talk to regarding these animals that's why I'm on there. He has been told time and time and time and time again to stop doing what he does but he ignores it every single time he has annoyed so many people on there he has been banned from posting in any of the important channels other users have come onto the server looking for him because they are so pissed off with his behavior. He hides behind sayings such as oh I don't have any issue with T, rex its just its fanboys or I don't have an issue with tyrannosaurus I love all dinosaurs. Yet his actions never ever match what he is saying. He constantly uses old or outdated information when everyone tells to stop doing this he never listens. We have told him to stop bringing up Tyrannosaurus he can't go one day without doing it either on the discord or on the world of animals forum. We tell him to stop downplaying Tyrannosaurus and to stop bringing up its fans he never ever stops. People on this forum have also come across him doing this and have told him to stop.
If you need any proof of this behavior just ask me and I will invite you all to the discord server and you can all see what the issue is it's not like I do not have any proof to back up what I am saying trust me,
What I'm doing is taking only 1 of many plausible maximum Mapusaurus estimates. I do this on World of Animals as well but add disclaimers that it's only 1 estimate and it could be bigger or smaller; maybe I should do so here as well?
As for rounding Sue, it's less troublesome, it's functionally the same, and a lot of people know what I mean. SpinoInWonderland also has made a very good point on DeviantArt several times that the density of Tyrannosaurus is probably less than 0.915 that is used for other dinos due to its very robust build and its coelurosaurian nature.
Hopefully this helps to clear things up. If there is the potential for disagreement over my size estimates I can add disclaimers.
I and most of others, I think, are interested to see estimations from experts and of course known measurements (with sources). Naturally if there are contradictions among experts, it´s interesting to know (if possible) what is mostly agreed. When/if there is disagreement, it´s best to put facts on the table and let those who are interested to check and then decide how they think about.
(12-15-2019, 10:04 PM)DinoFan83 Wrote: Just to show how big Sauroposeidon is. If you don't like my size comparisons, ignore them. Plain and simple!
But you know it's not about not liking your size comps it's about you downplaying Tyrannosaurus and you using outdated information to help you with this or making the same mistakes over and over and over again. You keep ignoring everyone that picks up on what you are doing. You have once again ignored what i have stated regarding Mapusaurus because you refuse to acknowledge what you are doing because you know exactly what you are doing and that is to downplay the animals you do not like while giving the animals you do like an edge. You always use Franoys best size fit for the largest Mapusaurus the 12.2m 7.6 ton estimate and state that's the average size when it's really not its the maximum size we have right now. You have been told countless times on the discord by people who know much more regarding this stuff than you do and they use the most current data to support there claims. The whole discord is about being as accurate as you can be. You then come on there post something that is really old and outdated or just flat out inaccurate then ignore everything that is said to you and carry on doing the same things over and over again. It would not that bad but you are always on forums posting this stuff and people come on here for accurate info and a lot that you post is often misleading.
You can not be trusted when regarding Tyrannosaurus and your size comps along with most things you say are from outdated information or even outdated work by people who are well known to have a bias against Tyrannosaurus like Brolly. And until you start listening to the people correcting your mistakes I will leave a disclaimer on your posts stating this.
Or you can just start listening to people who clearly know better.
Could you put here latest information now concerning Tyrannosaurus and Mapusaurus, I mean estimated average size and then latest estimation for biggest size. It might be a good idea to clarify situation now. @GuateGojira could then put also shortly how he see that information and @DinoFan83 can and should say if he disagree and why. I don´t start to even pretend that I would know too well latest and most detailed information concerning these. Still I think, that at this point it would be good to clarify situation and used sources/studies so, that people interested can check things.
If there really is a situation, that maximum sizes are used as averages for some species while from another is used average sizes, that is of course wrong and against it, what wildfact tries to accomplish. I have read some postings and it looks like time to interfere a bit and see if we can get some conclusions.
The issue is he is just not to be trusted when it comes to anything he says regarding the big theropod dinosaurs and this has been picked up on by a variety of different people on different platforms. He has a reputation of downplaying Tyrannosaurus he has a massive problem regarding the animal. All you need to do is go on to the forum that he is a moderator on or can even just invite you to the Theropoda discord server. And all you would need to do is scroll up and you will see it for yourself or just ask anyone on there what he is like.
He has alienated most of the members on the discord and he has been told time and time and time and time again to stop doing what he does but he ignores it every single time he has annoyed so many people on there he has been banned from posting in any of the important channels. He hides behind sayings such as oh I don't have any issue with T, rex its just its fanboys or I don't have an issue with tyrannosaurus I love all dinosaurs. Yet his actions never ever match what he is saying. He constantly uses old or outdated information when everyone tells to stop doing this he never listens. We have told him to stop bringing up Tyrannosaurus he can't go one day without doing it either on the discord or on the world of animals forum. We tell him to stop downplaying Tyrannosaurus and to stop bringing up its fans he never ever stops.
If you need any proof of this behavior just ask me and I will invite you all to the discord server and you can all see what the issue is it's not like I do not have any proof to back up what I am saying trust me,
Just be skeptical to what he posts on here.
I´m not interested to settle here disagreements from other places. But there seemed to be now dispute about size of T-rex, that´s why I asked you guys to put some clear postings about latest information. Sizes, measurements and sources.
No more postings, which are more about old (personal more or less) disputes than about information concerning animals. You are both welcome to post here as long as able to focus to good information.
So your main point is, that @DinoFan83 uses old information instead of latest, what comes to T-rex. If you put once more time and in clear way that or those old sources and then latest sources, it would make it easy to check for all and decide what to believe.
12-17-2019, 02:34 AM( This post was last modified: 12-17-2019, 05:11 AM by JurassicDD )
(12-17-2019, 02:18 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-17-2019, 01:57 AM)JurassicDD Wrote:
(12-16-2019, 07:53 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-15-2019, 10:38 PM)JurassicDD Wrote:
(12-15-2019, 10:04 PM)DinoFan83 Wrote: Just to show how big Sauroposeidon is. If you don't like my size comparisons, ignore them. Plain and simple!
But you know it's not about not liking your size comps it's about you downplaying Tyrannosaurus and you using outdated information to help you with this or making the same mistakes over and over and over again. You keep ignoring everyone that picks up on what you are doing. You have once again ignored what i have stated regarding Mapusaurus because you refuse to acknowledge what you are doing because you know exactly what you are doing and that is to downplay the animals you do not like while giving the animals you do like an edge. You always use Franoys best size fit for the largest Mapusaurus the 12.2m 7.6 ton estimate and state that's the average size when it's really not its the maximum size we have right now. You have been told countless times on the discord by people who know much more regarding this stuff than you do and they use the most current data to support there claims. The whole discord is about being as accurate as you can be. You then come on there post something that is really old and outdated or just flat out inaccurate then ignore everything that is said to you and carry on doing the same things over and over again. It would not that bad but you are always on forums posting this stuff and people come on here for accurate info and a lot that you post is often misleading.
You can not be trusted when regarding Tyrannosaurus and your size comps along with most things you say are from outdated information or even outdated work by people who are well known to have a bias against Tyrannosaurus like Brolly. And until you start listening to the people correcting your mistakes I will leave a disclaimer on your posts stating this.
Or you can just start listening to people who clearly know better.
Could you put here latest information now concerning Tyrannosaurus and Mapusaurus, I mean estimated average size and then latest estimation for biggest size. It might be a good idea to clarify situation now. @GuateGojira could then put also shortly how he see that information and @DinoFan83 can and should say if he disagree and why. I don´t start to even pretend that I would know too well latest and most detailed information concerning these. Still I think, that at this point it would be good to clarify situation and used sources/studies so, that people interested can check things.
If there really is a situation, that maximum sizes are used as averages for some species while from another is used average sizes, that is of course wrong and against it, what wildfact tries to accomplish. I have read some postings and it looks like time to interfere a bit and see if we can get some conclusions.
The issue is he is just not to be trusted when it comes to anything he says regarding the big theropod dinosaurs and this has been picked up on by a variety of different people on different platforms. He has a reputation of downplaying Tyrannosaurus he has a massive problem regarding the animal. All you need to do is go on to the forum that he is a moderator on or can even just invite you to the Theropoda discord server. And all you would need to do is scroll up and you will see it for yourself or just ask anyone on there what he is like.
He has alienated most of the members on the discord and he has been told time and time and time and time again to stop doing what he does but he ignores it every single time he has annoyed so many people on there he has been banned from posting in any of the important channels. He hides behind sayings such as oh I don't have any issue with T, rex its just its fanboys or I don't have an issue with tyrannosaurus I love all dinosaurs. Yet his actions never ever match what he is saying. He constantly uses old or outdated information when everyone tells to stop doing this he never listens. We have told him to stop bringing up Tyrannosaurus he can't go one day without doing it either on the discord or on the world of animals forum. We tell him to stop downplaying Tyrannosaurus and to stop bringing up its fans he never ever stops.
If you need any proof of this behavior just ask me and I will invite you all to the discord server and you can all see what the issue is it's not like I do not have any proof to back up what I am saying trust me,
Just be skeptical to what he posts on here.
I´m not interested to settle here disagreements from other places. But there seemed to be now dispute about size of T-rex, that´s why I asked you guys to put some clear postings about latest information. Sizes, measurements and sources.
No more postings, which are more about old (personal more or less) disputes than about information concerning animals. You are both welcome to post here as long as able to focus to good information.
So your main point is, that @DinoFan83 uses old information instead of latest, what comes to T-rex. If you put once more time and in clear way that or those old sources and then latest sources, it would make it easy to check for all and decide what to believe.
That is fine but then you will not be getting any proof of what his behavior is like. Everything that I have stated can all be verified and you will see why he is not to be fully trusted when it comes to what he posts on here. He uses outdated information often to justify his views he has been posting work from 2014 on the discord. This might not seem like a huge deal to you but when it comes to Paleontology a lot can change in just a couple of years and many things have indeed changed since 2014.
Many of his comparisons have been called into question regarding scalling. He has been told many times on the discord about this but has ignored it. He is often told what the most current weight estimates are for the animals he often ignores this to or he will use outdated data do justify oversizing or undersizing certain animals. Just like with the most current data Mapusaurus is estimated to be 12.2 m and around 7.6 tons going from Franoys or 12.6 m if you want to use the most current fgure used in the most current geological literature. While he will use the largest currently accpeted size estimate for Mapusaurus and state its the average for the animal then state the maximum size is 13.6 meters long and 8.6 tons. This is oversizing and he has been told time and time again to stop doing this.
