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Tigers have good endurance?
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 (07-30-2019, 04:28 AM)Shadow Wrote:(07-29-2019, 10:17 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: Well, I saw the video and I can say that is a good one, not exceptional but the information that it shares is accurate. I put this here just to give some reasoning, why I don´t believe Thapar in this matter. Two quotes: "The fastest cheetah on Earth has done it again, breaking her previous world record for the 100-meter dash and setting a new best time of 5.95 seconds." "During a photo shoot with National Geographic Magazine, a cheetah from the Cincinnati Zoo named Sarah covered 100 meters and clocked a peak speed of 61 mph (98 kph)." Source: https://www.livescience.com/22080-cheetah-breaks-speed-record.html I just don´t believe, that any tiger or any other big or small cat could come even close to cheetah, not in speedup and not in peak speed. Btw, 100 meters in 5.95 seconds is in speed 60,50 km/h or 37,7 mph.  (07-30-2019, 05:02 AM)Shadow Wrote: But I would love to see how Thapar justifies that claim about 60 miles per hour. As I say, tigers are not build for speed but for short rushes and explosive attacks. However, Valmik Thapar observed the hunting technique of the tiger "Genghis" were he just run directly to the deers and drived them to the water. I still don't have the book "Tiger, portrait of a predator" (still on its way to me), so I don't have the full details of his observations of this male tiger, but probably it was in those incredible fast rushes where he got the calculation of the 60 mph (96.6 kph)! I think that the case is an exception to the rule, as the maximum speed that I know for tigers is about 60 kph, which is about the same than lions. Jaguars, as far I know, had not been measured in its speed. (07-30-2019, 09:00 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(07-30-2019, 05:02 AM)Shadow Wrote: But I would love to see how Thapar justifies that claim about 60 miles per hour. I have to say, that in this Thapar isn´t convincing. When looking at several studies about cheetah and knowing how fast it is compared to other big cats, in every way, that 60 mph doesn´t seem to be realistic. Might be wild guess in excitement when seeing a tiger hunting. I am sure, that there is no calculations, because when cheetah peaks in 59-64 mph depending about terrain and theoretical speed is 70-75 mph, that 60 mph for tiger, just not realistic. Slower animal just won´t peak in same speed as the fastest there is. But I can understand, that it can look like very fast, when seeing something fast to happen and getting excited. But knowing, that lionesses and tigresses are approximately equal and both are like turtles, when comparing to cheetahs 
(07-30-2019, 09:11 AM)Shadow Wrote:(07-30-2019, 09:00 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(07-30-2019, 05:02 AM)Shadow Wrote: But I would love to see how Thapar justifies that claim about 60 miles per hour. Maybe there has been some error when writing that book and 60 kph has been printed as 60 mph. 
@GuateGojira : Schaller compared the lion's and tiger's speed. He told that if any lion was able to outrun any tiger on 100 meters, no one lion could compete with a tiger on the first 20 meters. I see in this comparaison that tiger was more an ambush predator on very short distances than lion. And in my mind, it is what reflects the difference of hunting inside two different biotops: open savannah for the lion, covered and dense jungle for the tiger.
The tiger would be the "internal combustion engine" feline. But otherwise, as @Shadow says, we cannot generalize and compare the tiger's speed with the cheetah's speed. The adrenalin rush could make believe that if it is continued the tiger could compete with a cheetah, but it's impossible. We are speaking about two different things: brutal attack over a few meters (tiger) and maximal speed reached after a full short but complete acceleration (cheetah). If I want to extrapolate in the extreme can we compare the speed of a professionnal boxer's fist that is going to hit the opponent's face with the 100 meters sprinter's speed ? But I could be agree with you to state that perhaps among felines the tiger's adrenalin rush is unequalled. Although the lion's is very violent as well as the leopard's and jaguar's.
As I said, wait to get the book and then I will speak, for the moment the speed may be correct (but based in a very rare case), or maybe it was a typo in the book. I will not speak anymore until I have the information with me about the case.
Also, like I said before, as far I remember the maximum speed that I know is about 60 kph for lions and tigers. But Mr Bahavan Antel (from T.I.G.E.R.) once said that he saw tigers runing up to 80 kph. Honestly I don't know how reliable is that guy, but I think is good to share that information, just in case. (07-30-2019, 09:58 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: As I said, wait to get the book and then I will speak, for the moment the speed may be correct (but based in a very rare case), or maybe it was a typo in the book. I will not speak anymore until I have the information with me about the case. Mr. Antle did not merely say that the tigers can reach 80 kph. But he actually did speed tests of the animals. Mainly the tigresses were the fastest. Tiger reached 39 mph. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tzSvoItTc Those weren't estimates, Dr. Antle actually speed tested the animals. (07-30-2019, 09:48 AM)Spalea Wrote: @GuateGojira : Schaller compared the lion's and tiger's speed. He told that if any lion was able to outrun any tiger on 100 meters, no one lion could compete with a tiger on the first 20 meters. I see in this comparaison that tiger was more an ambush predator on very short distances than lion. And in my mind, it is what reflects the difference of hunting inside two different biotops: open savannah for the lion, covered and dense jungle for the tiger.@Spalea, when we are talking about running speed, if you check some studies about the subject, cheetahs have peaked on flat terrain at 64 mph and covered terrain 59 mph. 100 meter world record for cheetahs is, as far as I know 5.95 seconds. These figures can be checked. Also acceleration of cheetah is described to be incredible fast. Quote: "We recorded some of the highest measured values for lateral and forward acceleration, deceleration and body-mass-specific power for any terrestrial mammal." Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12295 Quote: "A cheetah accelerates very quickly, allowing it to overtake prey at close range." Another: "In addition to speed, a cheetah attains high acceleration. It can reach a speed of 47 mph (75 km/hr) in two seconds, or go from zero to 60 mph in 3 seconds and three strides. A cheetah accelerates as fast as one of the world's most powerful sports cars." One more: "Scientists calculate a cheetah's top speed is 75 mph, but the fastest recorded speed is somewhat slower." Source: https://www.thoughtco.com/how-fast-can-a-cheetah-run-4587031 Also read this to find out where figures 59 and 64 mph are from. https://io9.gizmodo.com/we-finally-have-an-accurate-measurement-of-a-cheetahs-t-512903920 So even though this is off topic in this thread, I just point out, that if Thapar really says, that tigers could run at peaks 60 mph, he would actually claim that tiger would be as fast runner as cheetah in short distances or even faster depending about terrain. And that is something, what I have never seen suggested anywhere before. What comes to cheetahs, there is a lot of information. What comes to tigers and lions, there are maybe some contradictions depending about source, but none has never suggested, that they would be close to cheetahs. And when looking at hunting videos of these animals, it´s quite easy to see why not. No matter are we talking about first 20 meters, 100 meters or 400 meters. And in this area I don´t think, that Thapar is an expert and his competence can and should be questioned if he alone claims something like that :) But we will know, what he claims and with what proof/reasoning soon. (07-30-2019, 11:33 AM)Shadow Wrote:(07-30-2019, 09:48 AM)Spalea Wrote: @GuateGojira : Schaller compared the lion's and tiger's speed. He told that if any lion was able to outrun any tiger on 100 meters, no one lion could compete with a tiger on the first 20 meters. I see in this comparaison that tiger was more an ambush predator on very short distances than lion. And in my mind, it is what reflects the difference of hunting inside two different biotops: open savannah for the lion, covered and dense jungle for the tiger.@Spalea, when we are talking about running speed, if you check some studies about the subject, cheetahs have peaked on flat terrain at 64 mph and covered terrain 59 mph. 100 meter world record for cheetahs is, as far as I know 5.95 seconds. These figures can be checked. Also acceleration of cheetah is described to be incredible fast. I have to add this still, there is a study about cheetah maximum speed with running start. Looks like to be tested in some track etc. Quote: "The speed of an adult cheetah was timed at 29ms-1 (mean of three trials over a 201.2 m course, with a running start). This is the highest running speed that has been recorded reliably for any animal." Source: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230065152_Timed_running_speed_of_a_Cheetah_Acinonyx_jubatus 29 meters in second is same as 104,4 kph or 65,09 mph. I think, that some might be interested about cheetah speed alone if reading this discussion, so maybe good to have this here too. (07-30-2019, 11:19 AM)RakeshMondal Wrote: Mr. Antle did not merely say that the tigers can reach 80 kph. But he actually did speed tests of the animals. Mainly the tigresses were the fastest. Thank you very much for the video and the corroboration. So it seems that is proved that tigers can reach the c.62 kph, which is the figure that I knew and quoted since the begining. I still have my doubt about the figure of 80kph that he mentioned, maybe it was a short rush, but if he is actually measuring the speed of the cats, I think that is reliable. Thank you again for the information. (07-30-2019, 11:33 AM)Shadow Wrote: And in this area I don´t think, that Thapar is an expert and his competence can and should be questioned if he alone claims something like that Wow! Why I don't see the wave of critics about this statement? When I mentioned my point of view of Sankhala (which I proved extensively) I was almoust banned from this place and even @peter was included, but now that someone mention something negative about Thapar there is only silence, the same that happened with Dr Karanth before.  Double standards?Valmik Thapar is by far the man with more experience with tigers at this day, and at this moment he have very good backup for each one of his claims. About the speed issue, I think that probably it was a typo, as there is no coincidence that the maximum speed that I know is exactly the same the quote which is "60", but instead of miles it should be km, that is all. I will get the book of Thapar "Tiger portrait of a predator" which includes the history of Genghis, I will see if he mention any speed measurement or maybe the figure of 60 kph came from the observations of others. I have saw videos of Genghis running and it is an explosive rush that last much more than the normal attack of any other tiger that I had saw. In fact, it is more impresive than the running of the tigress of Mr Antle in the video. (08-01-2019, 10:19 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(07-30-2019, 11:33 AM)Shadow Wrote: And in this area I don´t think, that Thapar is an expert and his competence can and should be questioned if he alone claims something like that I questioned his competence on that thing concerning tiger running speed, because that statement (if true), based on known information is very odd. This has nothing to do with Sankhala or anyone else. I am not questioning here all what Thapar say. But what comes to running speed we have a lot of information about Cheetah, valid information from pretty serious studies with a lot of testing. If Thapar truly writes in his book, that tiger would run 60 mph, I do make questions and want to know more, that how has he made tests and what team has been there and has anyone else had same kind of results. I have said before, that all make mistakes time to time and Thapar without a doubt has done those too. That doesn´t mean, that I would question his competence overall. I haven´t seen so far anything even closely as impressive, what comes to running speed, from any other big cat when comparing to cheetah. The way how cheetah accelerates and then runs in full speed makes videos of other big cats running look like lame. And knowing results from Cheetah, peak speed, I simply don´t believe that any other big cat is able to peak in same speed. Not if only one person say so in some book. But to be honest, I believe, that either there is typo or then Thapar has made there a mistake and publishes now information which isn´t true. When you get that book, it is very interesting to hear more. So I do respect Thapar as a person, who is important in tiger conservation and has a lot of knowledge. I just don´t take for granted all what he says, especially if he claim something, which is highly questionable when comparing to common knowledge. Mr. Antle then again is one interesting and controversial person, but he hasn´t ever even after his tests, valid or not, claimed that tigers would run as fast as cheetahs. No double standards here, just criticism when certain claim is very questionable. I have said about Sankhala myself, that he has made conclusions which can be questioned with good reasons. And same goes with Karanth, Thapar, Anderson, Miquelle and all scientists, if someone makes suddenly an odd statement, it naturally creates questions if it is in contradiction with all other known information. If you understood, that I was questioning whole competence of Thapar, then my writing left space for misunderstanding :) I questioned it what comes to running speed issue if he really claims, that tigers runs 60 mph. If he doesn´t , then different thing.  (08-01-2019, 10:19 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(07-30-2019, 11:33 AM)Shadow Wrote: And in this area I don´t think, that Thapar is an expert and his competence can and should be questioned if he alone claims something like that ON THE ART OF DEBATING AND HOW TO GET TO A BIT OF KNOWLEDGE A disappointing contribution in more than one respect, Guate. Again. Here's why (from the top down). 1 - Questioning the competence of authorities Asking questions is one of the fundamentals of democracy. It's also, by a margin, the best way to evaluate knowledge and improve in that department. Especially when authorities are involved, as they have a big impact. Shadow is a mod. He asked a legitimate question about the speed of tigers when he read something that could have been a result of an error, a typo or an outright mistake. The reason is he wants to prevent confusion on the speed of tigers. This is what a mod should do. 2 - Questioning statements of authorities is different from dismissing them Ullas Karanth, loaded with experience and knowledge, is an undisputed tiger authority. People like him made sure we still have tigers. But authorities usually are authorities in some departments, not others. If they enter unknown territory, mistakes could take over. As a result of the stature of authorities, mistakes can have an effect, especially when they enter publications. Valmik Thapar also is an undisputed tiger expert. His statement regarding the speed of tigers, as Shadow pointed out, could have been the result of a kind of guesstimate or a typo. The reason is tigers do not reach speeds of 60 miles an hour. My guess is Shadow could be right. That, however, doesn't mean Thapar, assuming his statement on tiger speed wasn't a result of a misprint, is an amateur. He, like Ullas karanth, still is one of the leading tiger experts and that will never change. 3 - Indirectly addressing (one of) the co-owners of the forum where mods ask legitimate questions Is not a good idea, especially when you just had a narrow escape. The owners of Wildfact are interested in the natural world. They said they will focus on good information and that's what they do. Authorities publish peer-reviewed articles, but they also are involved in other publications. Some of these can have statements of a rather dubious nature. This means they need to be discussed. Asking questions always is a good start. Apparently, you disagree with this policy. The remark on double standards in this respect also wasn't appreciated. Two points deducted. 4 - Authority I noticed you have a somewhat peculiar attitude regarding authorities. You almost revere some, but severely question others. In the end, as we have seen, this policy can only result in black and white images and heroes and villains. I also noticed you tend to be wary when well-spoken posters focus on your posts. When WaveRiders joined the forum and selected some of your contributions, you apparently didn't see he was ridiculing your contributions. I did, concluded it was a bad start and decided to intervene right away. My advice is to change your policy on experts, statements, colours and conclusions. There are no heroes and villains. Some specialists are real good at what they do, but specialisation usually comes at a cost (referring to blind spots). Generalists, on the other hand, often stay away from mistakes, but lack the expertise needed to get to sound conclusions. What I'm saying is most people have a bit of both. 5 - Sankhala I didn't see anything new in your very long post on Sankhala in the tiger thread after the debate on dholes, tigers, observations and conclusions. In my eyes, your post was a somewhat indirect route to a kind of apology and it was accepted. It was accepted because it underlined you knew you had crossed a line. As it must have been hard to get to a kind of explanation, your attempt was appreciated. I proposed to move on. Apparently, the message eluded you. When you was questioned again, Sankhala immediately entered the debate. 6 - Big cat speed Over the years, I saw a lot of documentaries about big cats. In some of them, tigers and other big cats performed in the department of speed. Lionesses and tigresses can be very fast when the distance covered is less than, say, 100 meters, but I was most impressed by male tiger Abu (also known as Genghis, I think). More than once, he, in spite of his bulk, was able to surprise sambars in the shallow lake. I have no clue as to the speed he reached, but my guess is Abu might have reached 55-60 kph, meaby even a bit more. In some of the facilities I visited, I saw cheetahs run from up close. I also played with young big cats (tigers and lions) when I visited trainers in circuses. Big cats (lions, tigers, jaguars and leopards) can be very fast and agile, but cheetahs, speedwise, are in a league of their own. More than once, I saw documentaries in which their speed was checked. At times, they used cars and at times their used the time they needed to cover a shortish distance to get to an estimate. The conclusion was that cheetahs can reach 90-110 kph. Even more impressive was the acceleration. 7 - The debate on speed For now, I assume the 60 that started the debate was 60 kph, and not 60 mph. But the debate isn't about speed. It is about the result of a legitimate question in that this question , again, developed into something we want to avoid over here. I again had to invest time to write this post, Guate. Because you again mistook a mosquito for an elephant. This for a man who graduated in business-administration. Disappointing, to put it mildly. The time to change a few things has arrived. My advice is no more heroes, villains and questions and responses that result in a non-productive exchange from now on. Learn how to deal with criticism, stay away from absolutes and explosions, focus on good information and stay away from time-consuming debates about zilch.
I think I have the right to answer:
This is really stupid at this point, all this "drama" just for an statement that is only two lines is a page in a book that deserves more reputation for all what it presents! Now I see that the form of writing of @Shadow is always in this cold and somethimes harsh form, so I will take it like it is, and that will be all with him. Now, about your post @peter, I am in completelly dissagree and I am going to answer it in a personal message, just for you, the drama must stop! Honestly I am tired of all this, I will get the book of Mr Thapar the next week probably, as delivers from USA to Guatemala are slow. Then I will try to clarify the case and that will be all. Returning to the point of the post...... Now, to the other posters, read this page: http://www.ligerworld.com/speed-of-tiger.html Now I remember where Mr Antle says that tigers reached the 80 kph. It was in a reality show from Animal Planet where they were searching the next TV "animal" presenter. The name of the show was "King of the Jungle", was hosted by Jeff Corwin, Nigel Marven was the judge and Mr Antle participated and shared its animals for the show (only the first season was broadcasted in Guatemala). If we belive in the link that I presented before (which I think is using real speed tests), then the highest speed reached for a tigress in Myrtle Beach Safari was of 47 miles per hour which is 75.6 kilometers per hour. That will explain where Mr Antle got the figure of "80". Actually it was just an aproximation, but the real figure was actually less. The link about the show: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_th...TV_series) My conclution at this moment is that the two lines of Mr Thapar book are just a typo and that probably he was trying to say that are "60 kilometers an hour", which is more likelly for a tiger at full rush. Edit: Just in case here is the link where it shows Mr Antle and the crew of the Tv show "King of the Jungle": http://www.tigerfriends.com/kingjungle.html |
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