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Tiger-Lion Coexistence in Eurasia between Middle Pleistocene and Holocene Epochs
Tiger-Lion Coexistence in Eurasia between Middle Pleistocene and Holocene Epochs
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Tiger-Lion Coexistence in Eurasia between Middle Pleistocene and Holocene Epochs
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I think this thread or discussion will be answer to that thread If lion and tiger share same place what would be their surviving strategy? in Quality information (Invite only) topic.
Once, Tiger-Lion coexisted like Gator-American croc. They may rarely try to kill each other to reduce competition due to dietary overlap b/w sympatric predators to reduce competition pressures on their limited food and space and to decrease threats of other predators to their young ones but that shows negligible impact in their population numbers as death only occur when they cross path in each other habitats and an individual is cornered or caught in ambush so that it can't escape orelse one of the individual takes care to avoid confrontation or runs away. Lion will kill tiger to reduce competition for prey and to ensure their young ones survival but not eat a tiger (mostly, coz they don't eat other predators nor they seem as prey) or protect its territory and mates coz tiger don't mate with lions, they both are different predators to fight for turf or territory coz there are no territories b/w lion and tiger and neither they can communicate with each other with vocalisations/body language/scents coz both are different species of different lineage of same genus. There are no territories b/w Lion and Tiger, even Lion don't have territories with its closet living relative Leopards of same lineage coz they are different species still.
The interaction b/w lion and tiger is same as Lion-leopard. Nothing special, they fight, kill each other but still live same areas i.e.., co-occurring or coexisting like before similar to Lion-Leopard. Lion-Leopard don't breed and hybridize naturally in the wild even being close relatives coz they are different kinds of animals and only breed with their own race, hence they are called species which is group of same individuals reproduce to give fertile offspring and in the same way, Lion-Tiger don't breed in the wild. If Lion-Leopard can coexist, Lion-Tiger too coexisted and will coexist that is they can live in same area. ofcourse they compete and kill each other and predate each other but that's rare but that does show negligible impact on each other population like in b/w lion-leopard, still they survive even living in the same place or preferring different habitats. Man don't inter-breed with a chimp, there is no hybridisation b/w leopard and tiger/leopard and lion and there is no inter-breeding (out breeding/crossing) or hybridisation b/w lions and tigers coz they can distinguish other animals from their race and even in their race they are picky to choose the mate. Breeding with other race is out of question. Species itself is a isolated group of individual/population/community of same/identical organism differing from other types of animals races with exact similarities in behavior, genetically and phenotypically and everything else same which perpetuate through sexual reproduction to give fertile offspring. These things never happen in wild not even by negligible chance. Even in imaginary case in a dream if somebody forcefully bred lion and tiger in wild, offspring is not born most of the time coz zygote is not formed with different chromosome number (in case of lion and tiger chromosome number is same as they belong to same genus)/ different genteic or chromosomal structure b/w different species. Even if the embryo is formed, it will get aborted in maximum. If it is born, it wont live few minutes due to various somatic disorders and genetic abnormalities. Even if it live, it can't live on it's own and sustain itself with its different physical characteristics which are out of natural selection to survive in the wild and it will be sterile. For example, a Liger is too heavy to run fast to gain enough speed and momentum to catch swift wild prey and it different coat doesn't give proper camouflage to ambush and its body size needs lots of meat many times more than their parents normal requirement rates in quantities, for its abnormal growth and metabolism. So, nature always removes such unwanted variants (which are not present and occur in nature normally) like hybrids in populations through natural selection process in evolution to promote "only" the fittest organism of the survival to the changing environmental conditions to continue reproduction and continuation of its race making adaptation possible and hybrids and other mutants are removed from the equation in this process. If species can inter-breed in the natural world then, the world will be filled with pokemons and jurassic world game hybrids. In captivity, situation is different coz animals irrespective of species are put together in enclosures so that they never know their natural instincts that is only to reproduce with its own species. So almost all hybrids types of animals are only created in captivity. https://qr.ae/TUyxd6 Coexistence means living in same place not tolerating and being friendly with each other presence. Lion-Tiger didn't tolerate each other, they lived in same place that is=Co-existed/Co-occurred like other inter-specific predatory sympatric competitors.
If a liger was raised by lions, in the wild, could it be a successful member in a pride of lions?
 *This image is copyright of its original author Ketan Pande Very few people know this. First of all, there are almost 1/1000000 chances (almost impossible) of Liger getting born in wild? And there is an amazing reason behind it, and it will make you respect nature more. Well, many people don’t know that in India, at the Gir Forest, a wild tiger was spotted, making it the only place (state) in the world where tiger, lion and leopard co-exist for some time. *This image is copyright of its original author So, If a young lion in Gir forest who is abandoned by pride, encounters and lives with a tigress, and everything goes smooth between them, will they mate, and will liger be born? The answer is simple, Quote: Wrote:NOOOOOOO!! And that’s where Mother Nature comes into the picture. Both of them belongs to different lineages in Panthera. Lions don't even breed with Leopards who are the closest living relatives to them. If lion, tiger could breed when they coexisted in the past, then seeing Leopon and Lipard is common in Africa or Gir as Leopard is the closest relative to Lion. Very few people know that there are 7 Barriers of Nature that prevent "interspecies" crossing. So here are these 7 Barriers or "Unconditional Instincts" of nature which will "only" promote species to breed with themselves in the wild: (An man won't like to **** a chimp even they are closely related species, even becomes picky to chose mate in his own race). Every species has their own sexual dimorphism and their own methods of choosing mates in their own species. Some have special adaptations and rituals for that. 1. Behaviour barrier Both animals have different behaviour, while one prefers solitary life and other prefers living in pride. This mismatch of behaviour will reduce the mating to a greater extent. 2. Mating Barrier Suppose, an exception occurs, and both tigress and lion become friends. But, a sexual ritual mismatch will not make both of them breed. The possibility will be reduced, 3. Sex-organs Barrier: Still, an exception occurs and both them think of mating with each other, then sex-organs mismatch will avoid the successful breeding. 4. Biological Barrier: Now, if a case where both tigress and lion surpass above barriers and mate. Then the semen will not match with ovaries and chromosomal recombination abnormalities occurrence is high, sometimes chromosome number doesn't match. Thus, seizing the successful breeding. 5. Development Barrier: If all the above barriers are somehow crossed, then the development of fetus will not take place. 6. Misidentification Barrier: Still, a fetus comes into the picture, then the mother body will not be able to identify the fetus, as it is abnormal. Thus, mothers body will not provide nutrition to the fetus and it will die.’ 7. Communication Barrier: Both are different species, and have quite different Vocalizations/Body language and Scent or Odour which prevents inter-species communication or territorial behavior. 8. Immunity barrier: Suppose in the extremely rare situation somehow a liger is born, then the body will be confused as it will not complete of any of the parents. Thus, it will have low immunity, and it will die at a young age due to aberrations in genetic or somatically in morphology or physiology. And, if a liger still reaches adulthood, then it will be sexually inactive (sterile) as it will have different penis and semen. Thus, the offspring of liger will never be born and bloodline of hybrid ends. P.S. These are all for wild animals, don't compare this with Captive Animal Hybrids or Breeding. And let me tell you, In wild, it’s next to impossible to cross top 3 barriers. Thus, liger was/will never be born, so it’s unnecessary to think about its interaction with the lion pride. The Liger that you see in captivity is made successful via genetic recombination and other manipulations to make it successful for various benefits in attracting tourist attention. So for now, let’s assume that it's impossible. As both are top predators in sympatric competition, they will avoid one another as it is fatal for interaction and mating is out of equation. But nature has always surprised us, so one day we might see an exception and that’s why I said at the start that there are 1/1000000 chances of its success. Even it happened, the offspring won't survive long... This is not only for these two animals. These are basic and fundamental principles for any living organism or species to be like a species not hybrid, if all animals can hybridize then no animal looks same as other, every animal will be unique and can't reproduce after and it will be the end of life on earth but that didn't happen.. Our world is natural world with "species" not Pokemon world with Pokemons and Hybrids. Dawin's finches for example, considering Geospiza genus, all species in the genus are endemic to the Galápagos Islands. Together with related genera, they are collectively known as Darwin's finches. There are extant 9 SPECIES. Geospiza conirostris, Geospiza difficilis, Geospiza septentrionalis, Geospiza acutirostris, Geospiza fortis, Geospiza fuliginosa, Geospiza magnirostris, Geospiza scandens and Geospiza propinqua. All are endemic and live in Galápagos Islands. But there are no hybrids, they don't interbreed.  *This image is copyright of its original author American alligator and Croc don't inter-breed either...(They too are sympatric and apex predators of similar sizes living in the same place i.e.., Co-occurring or coexisting)  *This image is copyright of its original author They too compete for food "not territories". They too fight to reduce competition but in the end, that don't impact their population as both avoid most, fight least. *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author Mortality rate between inter-species competition and other natural causes (except man) balances natality rate of population, that's how the world's predators coexist. Or should I say Cougar-Jaguar coexistence... examples are countless.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Chhota Nagpur Plateau area (The mentioned bengal tiger is actually from Chota nagpur)  *This image is copyright of its original author
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Bannerghatta NP.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
It's interesting that lions of any kind have never existed in Southeast Asia, one of the only major areas where they didn't expand to.
(03-21-2019, 05:14 AM)Richardrli Wrote: It's interesting that lions of any kind have never existed in Southeast Asia, one of the only major areas where they didn't expand to.True. South East Asia, is the birth place of Tropical evergreen forests. It is too short time, for lions to evolve to rain forest environments. True that Lions is one of the most adaptable species except for humid, hot and dense canopy. The climate in Southeast Asia is mainly tropical–hot and humid all year round with plentiful rainfall. The tropical rain belt causes additional rainfall during the monsoon season. The rain forest is the second largest on earth (with the Amazon being the largest).  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Range of lions since the Pleistocene. Image by Ross Barnett  *This image is copyright of its original author Mitogenomics of the Extinct Cave Lion, Panthera spelaea (Goldfuss, 1810), Resolve its Position within the Panthera Cats http://dnevniki.ykt.ru/shadowcat/712660 *This image is copyright of its original author Phylogeography of lions (Panthera leo ssp.) reveals three distinct taxa and a late Pleistocene reduction in genetic diversity, Pleistocene lion distribution and sample origin. Colours correspond to commonly cited population subdivisions (e.g. Baryshnikov & Boeskorov 2001). Numbers refer to particular samples used in this analysis But, but, but, there is a cat, that lived close to southeast asia, that is in china. *This image is copyright of its original author Panthera youngi- Panthera youngi is known from fossil cat species remains from Zhoukoudian in China was described in 1934, Middle Pleistocene of Asia (Choukoutien, northeastern China and Japan) and lived about 350,000 years ago in the Pleistocene epoch. It is believed to be related to modern lions, but is often treated as a separate species, and its relation is mostly unknown. It's remains were excavated in a Sinanthropus formation in Choukoutien, northeastern China. Upper and lower jaws excavated in Japan's Yamaguchi Prefecture were also attributed to this species. It was suggested that it was conspecific with Panthera atrox and P. spelaea. *This image is copyright of its original author Who knows, there might be fossils of new lion spp too in southeast asia which are jungle lions, there is a lot to discover... Even though there are no fossils, there might have lived there as fossils preservation in those climatic conditions is difficult. @Richardrli 
I believe lions dominated solitary tigers during Pleistocene as they lived in groups. And tigers those days weren't as strong and dominant as they are today. But a head on faceoff between single lion and solitary tiger would had been a so bloody fight with the big hearted lion and the highly athletic tiger facing like trutrue warriors.
(03-21-2019, 10:38 AM)parvez Wrote: I believe lions dominated solitary tigers during Pleistocene as they lived in groups. And tigers those days weren't as strong and dominant as they are today. But a head on faceoff between single lion and solitary tiger would had been a so bloody fight with the big hearted lion and the highly athletic tiger facing like trutrue warriors. Well, both have suffered heavily by human actions. Without our ancestors there would most probably be lions in many parts of India even today as there are tigers. But now situation is what it is and far from easy. I am quite sure, that tigers and lions can find a way to coexist if there is enough space and prey animals for both. But what is situation after a few decades is totally another question. Of course when numbers are this low, even some individuals have more meaning, but if population numbers could be raised to some reasonable levels, interactions between these two species would be just a marginal factor for both, when they would be settling down. (03-21-2019, 10:38 AM)parvez Wrote: I believe lions dominated solitary tigers during Pleistocene as they lived in groups. But a head on faceoff between single lion and solitary tiger would had been a so bloody fight with the big hearted lion and the highly athletic tiger facing like trutrue warriors. First, No versus content Please... :) This thread is not about who is dominant or more powerful, who is larger or who is stronger, who wins or loses a fight... There is nothing dominating, Lions only arrived Eurasia about 0.8 mya through Iberian bridge. At that time, if you are talking about "true tigers" then, the one that is already present is him: *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author He is the most ancient, widespread (most of Eurasia incl. Sunda) and versatile spp and ancestor to all modern tiger spps and some plesitocene spp like solenensis and hence, he is called "Antique Tiger". He evolved in Late Pliocene about 2 Mya. Then, Lions (fossilis, vereschagini, youngi and spaelea) are immigrants about 0.8 mya. According to the assumptions of the last of genetic research, these tigers almost entirely disappeared at the end of the Pleistocene era, maybe around 10,000-12,000 years ago. *This image is copyright of its original author These are not alone, there are various species of saber toothed cats (inc. smilodons), cave bears, cave hyenas, cave leopards and other extinct canids and felids. They all coexisted with other herbivorous and avian mega fauna and homonids. (03-21-2019, 10:38 AM)parvez Wrote: And tigers those days weren't as strong and dominant as they are today. NO, he is not small. He is larger than modern spp like Siberian and Hyrcanian tigers (his descendants), it grew to sizes of 2.3 m in length, 120 cm in height, and 200 to 350 kg in weight on average and can be the largest subspecies of Panthera tigris. It is not popular like the american lion or the smilodon populator but could be the largest natural cat of all time. Its body weight might have reached 500 kg.  *This image is copyright of its original author .  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author And we are not entirely sure about cave lion species social behavior. There are strong reasons from both sides as these evolved from basal lion spp like Natodomeri lion (P. cf. leo) which don't have such social ecology like prides or mane (sexual dimorphism) which are specific to modern spp of lions like leo and melanochaita. *This image is copyright of its original author Let's assume, the cave lion species are social and live in groups. The chance of their fighting with tigers or smilodon for competition or protection of cubs or over a kill is low as they are outnumbered. The probability of fight or no fight depends on the situation. So, most encounters will be avoided by solitary predatorial species. If those lions were also solitary too then, they too will compete similar in ecology as top predator with sabers and tigers. So, there were still possibilities to fight and not all fight leads to death, some can be intimidations or some can be chase always or some can be only fights not deaths. Over all Mortality rate between inter-species competition and other natural causes (except man) balances natality rate of population, that's how the world's predators coexist since life origin and nature works in ecology and food web. If you are talking about true tiger ancestors which are also tigers like (Longdan tiger) Panthera zdanskyi, Panthera aff. tigris, Panthera cf. tigris, and other "true" tiger spp like trinil, bornean, japanese, ngandong etc.., They were never coexisted with lions. In fact, when first three species, lived lions not even existed or originated in Africa. LOL. *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
(03-21-2019, 11:51 AM)Shadow Wrote: Well, both have suffered heavily by human actions. Without our ancestors there would most probably be lions in many parts of India even today as there are tigers. But now situation is what it is and far from easy. I am quite sure, that tigers and lions can find a way to coexist if there is enough space and prey animals for both. But what is situation after a few decades is totally another question. Of course when numbers are this low, even some individuals have more meaning, but if population numbers could be raised to some reasonable levels, interactions between these two species would be just a marginal factor for both, when they would be settling down.Good analysis.  Couldn't have explained that better myself.Anyway both Lions and Tigers will be no more. No matter whether they allowed to live in same place or not. #HumanBeingsPrevail in the end. #SixthMassExtinction.  All animals are doomed and in the verge of Extinction.
(03-21-2019, 12:44 PM)Sanju Wrote:Well, overpopulation is maybe the most important issue to solve when thinking in a very realistic way. There are still vast forests and wildlife in some parts of the world, while in other places situation is very bad. Who knows, maybe the future of the tiger is after all in Russia and not in India.... it is difficult to know how things change in future. In Russia there are huge forests, it is easy to look at satellite images for anyone to see, where is room for wildlife and where agriculture claims more and more land.(03-21-2019, 11:51 AM)Shadow Wrote: Well, both have suffered heavily by human actions. Without our ancestors there would most probably be lions in many parts of India even today as there are tigers. But now situation is what it is and far from easy. I am quite sure, that tigers and lions can find a way to coexist if there is enough space and prey animals for both. But what is situation after a few decades is totally another question. Of course when numbers are this low, even some individuals have more meaning, but if population numbers could be raised to some reasonable levels, interactions between these two species would be just a marginal factor for both, when they would be settling down.Good analysis.
@Sanju well, i meant late Pleistocene. Only around tens of thousands of years ago. Not millions. I am sure in places like iran or Persia they coexisted during Pleistocene and I was talking about that. I was not talking about size but of strength and domination of tigers over time.
@Shadow yes it is very sad to know that india is more focussed on development and cutting forests. More and more land is lost to agriculture and encroachment. But in northeast india, forest cover is more. The tigers of northeast india and Bhutan are more fortunate. There is high scope of survival for them. But tigers from rest of india also must flourish. Without natural forests, man cannot survive. Leaders must understand that.
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