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Saltwater Crocodile-Great White Shark interactions
Saltwater Crocodile-Great White Shark interactions
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Saltwater Crocodile-Great White Shark interactions
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Elephant seals are far larger than any prey crocodiles can take so the idea that Sharks take smaller prey proportionately isn't correct.
It's also obvious in their hunting strategy, GWS's hit and run, meaning they attack and sit back and let the prey bleed out while Crocodiles must bite and hold so obviously they cannot do that to animals too large which is why you have never seen a crocodile successfully take an adult Cape Buffalo for instance, it happens I'm sure but those are very rare cases compared to many modern day cases of Sharks attacking Elephant Seals.  (02-08-2019, 06:51 PM)Pckts Wrote: Elephant seals are far larger than any prey crocodiles can take so the idea that Sharks take smaller prey proportionately isn't correct.@Pckts You are right only very large Crocs hunt adult Cape Buffalos, very good information of the way Great White Sharks attack Elephant Seals. Very large Saltwater Crocodiles prey on Water Buffalos too. 
In this video is claimed, that Gustave have killed an adult hippo. Pity that no footage about that if it is true. But he is big and despite what great white or crocodile eat, they look like to be able to hurt each others when about same length.
(02-08-2019, 08:17 PM)Shadow Wrote: In this video is claimed, that Gustave have killed an adult hippo. Pity that no footage about that if it is true. But he is big and despite what great white or crocodile eat, they look like to be able to hurt each others when about same length. I'm not sure he's taking on an Adult Hippo and why would he? He'd have to be desperate to want to risk a fight with a Hippo to the death but the fact that the females put themselves between him and their calves says a lot, usually they'd just run off the Croc but they knew caution was a better option with Gustave. Although I don't think a big Bull would have the same patience. (02-08-2019, 09:57 PM)Pckts Wrote:(02-08-2019, 08:17 PM)Shadow Wrote: In this video is claimed, that Gustave have killed an adult hippo. Pity that no footage about that if it is true. But he is big and despite what great white or crocodile eat, they look like to be able to hurt each others when about same length. Yes that was quite interesting claim when knowing how big hippos are. No job for a small crocodile to even dream about. What comes to "Gustave size"... difficult to say, I guess that if biting a leg and making some quick moves even a hippo could be in difficult situation and maybe bleeding heavily. But yes, here we are talking about exceptional case if it has happened as claimed. 
@TheSmok @Shadow :
About #38, #44, #45: surely I underestimated the saltwater and Nile croc's capacities ! I didn't think they were able to swim as fast as that (24-29 km/h) and to dive up to 60 m. Finally the outcome between them and a white shark would be much more the one of a very close fight. Surely in my mind the actual crocs are not as adapted as the ancient mosasaurids during the Mesozoic era, especially during the Cretaceous times when the marine reptiles were dominating the seas. They were very big sharks too, and the ocean was surely the theater of very fierce battles. 
Not only largest crocodiles take buffaloes. Large healthy bulls (mature bulls can reach a weight of 900 kg for the African buffalo and 1200 kg for the Australian water buffalo) are certainly a difficult target for most crocodiles except for very large individuals (maybe 18+ feet long). But this is true for many predator-prey interactions and does not cancel the fact that crocodiles can be important predators for buffaloes in some areas.
15+ ft saltie take large buffalo at Bhitarkanika national park: Quote:The estuarine crocodile (Crocodylus porosus) is one of the largest and most widespread crocodilians in the world. Although considered an apex species, the role of the estuarine crocodile in aquatic foodwebs is poorly understood; we know what crocodiles ingest, but not what nourishes them. In this study, we used a combination of stable isotope measurements (δ13C, δ15N, and δ34S) and direct feeding observations to identify the source of nutrition of estuarine crocodiles in Kakadu National Park, Northern Australia. Our results show that most crocodiles sampled (size 850 – 4200mm, with 76% of them being > 2.5 m) consume a large variety of prey, however a large proportion of their nutrition is derived from terrestrial prey. Introduced species such as water buffaloes (Bubalus bubalis) and pigs (Sus scrofa) could contribute between 53 and 84% to the nutrition of the sampled crocodiles. The isotopic composition of large crocodiles (total length > 3 m) suggested possible increase in marine prey consumption with size (R2 = 0.30; p = 0.005). Additionally, we found crocodiles sampled in the dry season had on average higher terrestrial contributions compared to crocodiles sampled during the wet season (84.1 ± 2.4% versus 55.4 ± 7.0%). Overall, we found that terrestrial prey are important source of nutrition for many crocodiles in this region where introduced herbivorous mammals are abundant.  *This image is copyright of its original author There are also many videos of salties feeding on large buffalo carcasses. But it is not known whether they killed them or just found carcasses. Here I can mention an similar account that demonstrates the tremendous power and swimming skills of a large saltwater croc: Quote:During movement of "The Shiralee" upstream, we sighted a very large crocodile at km 41, dragging a dead bloated feral water buffalo across the river. The crocodile was midstream when we sighted it, at which time it dived with the buffalo held in its mouth and swam underwater some 20 to 30 m. This awe inspiring feat of strength had to be seen to be believed. The crocodile was the largest ever seen by HM during his 14 years of research on the tidal waterways of northern Australia and was estimated to be in excess of 20 feet in length. We had excellent views of the animal's head and estimated it to be at least one metre in length. A few days later we observed a 14 ft C. porosus with a freshly captured 6 ft struggling eel in its mouth. The eel struggled fiercely and kept wrapping its body around the head of the crocodile -but to no avail. The crocodile kept a posture, similar to that which we described on page 454, Monograph 1, when we witnessed a large crocodile capture a sharkInternational Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources. Crocodile Specialist Group. Working Meeting. IUCN, 1986. And this intresting account:  *This image is copyright of its original author Source. 5-meter saltwater crocodile from Australian zoo named Acco reportedly took buffaloes as well: Quote:There was a legend in North Queensland of a huge black crocodile that was thought to be measured over 35 feet long. Fishermen working in the river system would come back scared from a narrow escape battle with the giant croc known through Queensland as Acco. It was said that Acco had sunk boats, torn nets, and driven lots of fishermen from the river. It was even said that he could attack and kill a scrub bull, then he would drag the carcass hundreds of feet across mudflats and eat it. He was also known to be able to swallow a whole “Barra” boar. Croc hunters would compete and try to shoot Acco for the supreme award. Fishermen started to complain so the government sent in professional croc catchers, but they could not capture the huge croc.http://crikeyitsacrocodile.blogspot.com/...-acco.html  *This image is copyright of its original author Quote:A WILD African Buffalo struggles to take its last breaths before being dragged under the water by a crocodile in Uganda, Africa.Source. 14 ft Nile crocodile take adult buffalo bull from Pienaar (1969):  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Nile crocodile mortally wound adult buffalo:  *This image is copyright of its original author From Mitchell (1965): Quote:Six species only have been recorded as being killed by crocodiles but this figure must be affected by the difficulty of locating kills in the rivers and the short time they are available. Other than lion, crocodile is the only predator recorded as taking buffalo. The sample of kills is small but puku head the list. It is likely also that lechwe on the Busanga are also taken. Buffaloes are the largest animals found in common sympatry with saltwater crocodiles. But not with the Nile crocs. There are accounts showing that Nile crocodiles can take larger animals than buffaloes. Crocodiles feeding on giraffe kill:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.superstock.com/stock-photogr...d=14412085 Quote:That was a digression. It seems remarkable that a Crocodile would even try to overpower something with the size and weight of a bull Giraffe, an animal which, even when caught off balance, can bring galvanic strength into play. The three observations that follow tell virtually the same story. But the interval of years shows that even this is not an unusual event: Visitors to Uaso Nyiro witnessed a fight between a crocodile and a giraffe." Kenya Parks 1952...During October, a fully grown female giraffe was pulled into the river and drowned...Source.  *This image is copyright of its original author Source. Also see data from Pienaar (1969). It seems that the largest prey taken by crocodiles in normal conditions is the adult black rhinos. Account from Capstick (1977):  *This image is copyright of its original author Account by Selous (1908):  *This image is copyright of its original author Source. Mentioned photos:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Also there is an account describing a group of crocodiles killing a wounded bull hippo from Guggisberg (1972). I do not have access to this book now, but here is the description from wikipedia: Quote:At the no-longer-existent Rippon Falls in Uganda, one adult male hippopotamus was seen to be badly injured in a mating battle with a rival bull hippo, and was then subsequently attacked by several crocodiles, causing it to retreat to a reedbed. When the male hippo returned to the water, it was drowned and killed by the group of crocodiles amid "a truly terrifying commotion".Adult hippos should be immune to the Nile crocs predation under normal conditions, although it is possible that the largest individuals such as 20+ ft Gustave may try to take a lone hippo. Great white sharks do take Northern elephant seals, but successful predation on adult males is extremely rare (we actually have more reports of Nile crocodile predation on adult giraffes) and sharks almost always take juvenile animals. In all cases that I know adult males of elephant seals were taken by the very large sharks (up to 18-20 feet long) what is mean that prey was as large or even smaller than the predator. I should also note that weights over 2 tons (up to 2265 +-43 kg) are reported for Northern elephant seal males during the breeding season when they have a large amount of body fat and can lose up to 10 kg per day (and finally lose up to 37.6%-46.3% of body mass from the moment of arrival). The mass of the largest males of Northern elephant seals without additional body fat does not exceed 1.4-1.5 tons and the typical mass does not exceed 1 t. See Deutsch et al. (1989).
This study https://vk.com/doc-100980341_473767469?h...4a44fcf09c states
"Direct observations We compiled observations of feeding activities from records held by National Park rangers of Kakadu National Park. Direct feeding of crocodiles is likely to be biased towards crocodiles" Which means none of these cases are verified, just word of mouth. Water buffalo in Australia are the domesticated breed and they are also smaller, I believe they are with in the same range as Capes but being domesticated would make them far less equip to defend attacks from a predator they know nothing of. Very few Cape Bulls will reach the 900kg mark, that is an outlier so a Crocodile predating on one would be extremely rare regardless. That being said, I've seen many Cape Buffalo and a Giant Saltie from Australia that they have in the Dubai Mall (look him up if you haven't seen him) and I can without a doubt that a Saltie would be able to predate on most Bovine I've seen, I'd pay good money to see them attempt on the Big Bulls I've seen though, it would be a fantastic sight. But the video and picture you showed are both Cows btw and I thought the video that's Titled "1 Ton Buffalo vs Croc" actually showed the Cow escaping, but I could be wrong there? Now in regards to Giraffe, that is impressive but less so than a Bull Cape IMO, Giraffe are very awkward animals, especially when drinking or when they fall over, it's not easy for them to stand back up and with a croc latched on to it's leg, it's impossible but unless were talking about a young or smaller Black Rhino which is in the water, I have huge doubts that any Croc could ambush a rhino and not be overpowered immediately. Even a young Elephant is able to pull a large Croc back while in the water watch @ 4:00 If the Rhino is in the water and deep enough for the Croc to pull it out, then maybe it could happen. In regards to Elephant Seals, sharks do take adults, but it's rare like you stated but Elephant Seal is a main prey item for GWS and you can see it time and again so I have little doubt that large Seal is on the menu from time to time. *This image is copyright of its original author Even in shallow water they are still able to maneuver fairly well So Considering the size advantage for elephant seals over cape and water buffalo, I'd say their predation feats are fairly close. (02-10-2019, 02:00 AM)Pckts Wrote: This study https://vk.com/doc-100980341_473767469?h...4a44fcf09c states Very good video hunting in shallow water, first time I see a Great White Shark hunting in shallow water. It can happen a Saltwater Crocodile and Great White Shark meeting in the coasts of Australia.
Authors just mean that direct observations of crocodile feeding or predation as well as studies of the stomach contents are unreliable compared to isotope studies which show what prey items is assimilated into crocodile muscles. Observations of rangers and studing of stomach content are reliable, but do not show the real food ecology of crocs (only local cases of feeding).
Water buffalo in Australia as far as I know can reach very large sizes and have a record-sized horns in tip-to-tip dimensions (in fact, buffaloes weighing up to 1200 kg were recorded even for Komodo Island according to Auffenberg, 1981). Also I do not think that buffaloes that have co-evolution with crocodiles are poorly equipped to defend attacks from their natural predator. Domestic cows and horses are easy prey for crocodiles regardless of their size (e.g. 3.5-meter crocs take horse and mortally wounded a cow near rancho and a relatively small croc take a cow much larger than itself), but this is not true in the case with wild water buffaloes (especially large mature bulls) that seem to know about the threat of crocodiles. As for the buffalo from video "Massive Croc VS 1-Ton Buffalo - EPIC FOOTAGE!", user Venomous Dragon once wrote on old carnivoraforum: Quote:The uploader in the comments answering the question wheter the buffaloe died: "Sadly, my phone died... as did the buffallo a while later". I do not think that one account with a young elephant (which was further helped by other elephants, although it really pulled the crocodile) talks about all possible scenarios... The ability of a crocodile to overpower large prey depends on many factors, such as the depth of the water, shape of the shore, soil hardness and the prey body part that was grabbed by crocodile. There is a detailed discussion of how crocodile(s) managed to kill the adult female rhino in observation by Selous (1908): Quote:Crocodile attacks rhino. Returning to elephant seals, they are an important food source for great white sharks during the breeding season, when young animals are very abundant:  *This image is copyright of its original author Source. I remember 2 published accounts (one from scientific paper and one from the words of ichthyologist in video) of great white sharks took adult male elephant seals. In one account it may be 18+ ft shark according to very large bite marks: Quote:The majority of injured seals survived and recuperated rapidly. Infected wounds were rarely observed. Only three elephant seals died on the island or on the mainland following shark injury. In September 1976, an 8,5-mo-old female was found dead with numerous deep lacerations and teeth marks covering her body. In December 1977, a 1-wk-old pup washed up with its entire sacral region amputated just below the umbilicus. In February 1978, a large 7-yr-old male died on the island's main breeding beach from massive shark wounds incurred within the previous 24 h. The most serious wounds consisted of two large oval chunks of flesh missing from the left side of the thoracic region (Fig. 2e). The bites measured 61 and 69 em wide, 61 em high, and 30 cm deep. No bite penetrated the body cavity although some muscle was removed and a rib was partly exposed.  *This image is copyright of its original author This elephant seal was not actually taken, but at least mortally wounded. Le Boeuf (1982). Unfortunately I do not have access to video with the second account now, but In that case is mentioned a 20-foot shark. The size of elephant seals in both cases is not specified.
I wonder, is here now some doubt, that a big crocodile couldn´t give a nasty bite for a big shark? Or that a big shark couldn´t do the same for a big crocodile?
When looking at shark, best places for a crock to bite to make big injuries would be fins, tail and body near tail I think, from those parts crocodile could easily get a good and strong bite and able to do deep cuts, maybe even rip a fin or tail apart and cause mortal injuries for a shark. Then again when looking at crocodile and thinking what shark bite would do is another issue. Would it be able to injure a crocodile easier is another question. Of course a crocodile could bite in other parts of shark too, but because of different kind of anatomy, it might have best results when biting to certain parts of the big shark when thinking really dangerous cuts. Both have quite big jaws which they can open wide. One issue is crocodile tail too, it might be one way for a crocodile to get rid of a shark if shark would be able to make a surprise attack and bite. Unless that first bite would be right away lethal. These are some thoughts crossing in my mind, when looking at these animals and possible situation of predation to each others. Very unlikely thing to happen, I guess, but of course interesting one to make hypotheses :) 
It might be difficult for a shark to surprise a crocodile. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20...101506.htm
Croc supersense: Multi-sensory organs in crocodylian skin sensitive to touch, heat, cold, environment.
Here's that full croc attempt on the Buffalo, you can see the Croc Swim off.
Here's a croc having a go at some buffalo very unsuccessful I might add... I think this fella needs to work on his hunting game a little bit hah Aside from being much larger than a Croc, GWS are much faster in the water and if we are talking about any depth at all the GWS has a huge advantage since they can dive far deeper and explode up and attack whether at the surface or under water. GWS can be quite territorial and food aggressive, especially to smaller sharks. The same is probably true to any Predator similar in size. Lastly again is the massive size discrepancy between the two Even Lolong who's the largest Saltie Ever captured would only 1/2 the weight of the largest GWS and that is at similar body lengths, https://ourplnt.com/largest-great-white-...-recorded/ That is just too much mass in an animal far more equipped for the open ocean IMO. (02-16-2019, 04:30 AM)Pckts Wrote: Here's that full croc attempt on the Buffalo, you can see the Croc Swim off.@Pckts Very good post your point is right Big Crocs have no chance with big Great White Sharks in open deep waters, Crocs in videos are not that big to capture big Buffalos
The buffalo on first video died because of wounds, according to the words of the observer in the comments of original. Second video shows that there are not only large crocodiles are targereting at large buffaloes. Though I can not imagine how this small guy can take a large and healthy adult buffalo.
Quote:Aside from being much larger than a Croc, GWS are much faster in the water and if we are talking about any depth at all the GWS has a huge advantage since they can dive far deeper and explode up and attack whether at the surface or under water.Seriously? Crocodiles have the same coefficient of hydrodynamic efficiency as a marine animals. I wrote about this earlier. The maximum recorded swimming speed of the saltwater crocodile is comparable to the maximum recorded swimming speed of the great white shark, especially if we are talking about large sharks. Crocodiles are really underrated as pelagic swimmers. Quote:GWS can be quite territorial and food aggressive, especially to smaller sharks.You can see in these videos simmular things as “big crocodile chase a smaller crocodile”. But I have never seen sharks fight and take blows from each other, at least like these territorial males: Quote:Fights between and man and crocodile is nothing new at the Bhitarkanika wildlife sanctuary in Odisha’s Kendrapara district, famous for the menacing saltwater estuarine crocodiles. But a fierce fight between two crocodiles over territorial and mating rights raised eyebrows on Tuesday.https://odishasuntimes.com/war-over-terr...tarkanika/ Quote:The boys were first to spot the buffalo floating down the river and the huge group of crocodiles waiting for their turn to fight for it.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...river.html Quote:“He’d come to the boat to feed and touch the boat with his tail, think it was another croc, and run for his life,” he said. “He was also terrified of logs that looked too much like crocs.”https://www.news.com.au/technology/scien...c0f1756e83 Quote:Lastly again is the massive size discrepancy between the twoI will note that part of the of a Deep Blue shark body volume is fat accumulated in the liver and embryos (this is a pregnant female). Quote:Even Lolong who's the largest Saltie Ever captured would only 1/2 the weight of the largest GWS and that is at similar body lengthsLolong is the largest crocodile ever caught alive, but not the largest recorded crocodile and not even the heaviest crocodile kept in captivity. I know more than 10 skulls of saltwater crocodiles that are larger than the skull of Lolong:  *This image is copyright of its original author Source. If the skull from the Paris Museum (MNHN PMP A11803) belonged to a crocodile with typical proportions for large salties, then this specimen was about 6.84 meters in length and had weigh more than a third more than Lolong. The real average difference in weight between saltwater crocodile and great white shark is about 1/3 as well. |
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