There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
About #200: About this 400 wolves pack, I remember a book "the sixth winter" in which pack of more than 50 wolves were described, and were able to attack a russian troop. Very good science fiction book by John Gribbin written during the 80s... The sixth winter which precipitated the humanity into the ice age.
There is that old saying, approximately like this " the truth is more strange than legend" :) If Gribbin would have known what happens in future, but sometimes even writers can´t imagine what nature can put in front of us :)
Yes agree... Perhaps no one writer would dare frankly to describe our next extinction. We are always glorifying our discoveries, the " tremendous challenges that are in front of us", by believing that our future will be fascinating, exciting... Yet we will have to pay for all we have done... The bill will be steep.
Yes, many problems ahead because of overpopulation in so many places. But Siberian forests are still vast and animals have space and opportunity to live with minimal human interference in many places.
About #200: About this 400 wolves pack, I remember a book "the sixth winter" in which pack of more than 50 wolves were described, and were able to attack a russian troop. Very good science fiction book by John Gribbin written during the 80s... The sixth winter which precipitated the humanity into the ice age.
There is that old saying, approximately like this " the truth is more strange than legend" :) If Gribbin would have known what happens in future, but sometimes even writers can´t imagine what nature can put in front of us :)
Yes agree... Perhaps no one writer would dare frankly to describe our next extinction. We are always glorifying our discoveries, the " tremendous challenges that are in front of us", by believing that our future will be fascinating, exciting... Yet we will have to pay for all we have done... The bill will be steep.
Yes, many problems ahead because of overpopulation in so many places. But Siberian forests are still vast and animals have space and opportunity to live with minimal human interference in many places.
Yes, you're right as concerns the Siberian forests. But so many people are avidly watching these territories, starting the chinese, even if, ok, I trust the russians to protect their borders...
Wolves are amazing predators, even able to bring down elk on their own. But there is one place where they themselves are hunted, the Russian Far East. Here, Amur tigers have hunted wolves to the point where wolf numbers are low, that brings up the question, how did wolves survive the Pleistocene age in North America? Arctodus were too big and dangerous to handle, Dire Wolves also lived in packs and were larger and more powerful than grey wolves. Smilodon, Homotherium, and American Lions we're powerful big cats, and likely social. Let's take a look at wolf behaviour today, that'll help.
1. Grey Wolves hunt in packs, in the open plains they can get pretty big, numbering in the 30's I think. Not only does that help with hunting, but that would have meant multiple eyes, ears, and noses on the alert for danger back in the Ice Age.
2. They seem to like hunting during the day, which would have helped them avoid larger predators, but analysis of the brain and eye structure of Homotherium suggest that animal was a diurnal hunter too. Plus, Homotherium was definitely a social hunter, so these animals would have been avoided by wolves.
3. Prey selection, the larger predators hunted the larger animals like bison while grey wolves hunted things like deer and elk, so choosing different prey would have been helpful in avoiding competition with their enemies.
(02-10-2019, 03:28 AM)smedz Wrote: Wolves are amazing predators, even able to bring down elk on their own. But there is one place where they themselves are hunted, the Russian Far East. Here, Amur tigers have hunted wolves to the point where wolf numbers are low, that brings up the question, how did wolves survive the Pleistocene age in North America? Arctodus were too big and dangerous to handle, Dire Wolves also lived in packs and were larger and more powerful than grey wolves. Smilodon, Homotherium, and American Lions we're powerful big cats, and likely social. Let's take a look at wolf behaviour today, that'll help.
1. Grey Wolves hunt in packs, in the open plains they can get pretty big, numbering in the 30's I think. Not only does that help with hunting, but that would have meant multiple eyes, ears, and noses on the alert for danger back in the Ice Age.
2. They seem to like hunting during the day, which would have helped them avoid larger predators, but analysis of the brain and eye structure of Homotherium suggest that animal was a diurnal hunter too. Plus, Homotherium was definitely a social hunter, so these animals would have been avoided by wolves.
3. Prey selection, the larger predators hunted the larger animals like bison while grey wolves hunted things like deer and elk, so choosing different prey would have been helpful in avoiding competition with their enemies.
Can you tell, that to what studies have you read to make your conclusions? For instance where is said, that Amur tigers would have hunted wolves so much, that number is low as only possible explanation? To what is based idea, that wolves would like to hunt during day? Do you think, that they don´t hunt at nighttime? Then again prey selection is one thing, which is interesting. Can you give some sources?
(02-10-2019, 03:28 AM)smedz Wrote: Wolves are amazing predators, even able to bring down elk on their own. But there is one place where they themselves are hunted, the Russian Far East. Here, Amur tigers have hunted wolves to the point where wolf numbers are low, that brings up the question, how did wolves survive the Pleistocene age in North America? Arctodus were too big and dangerous to handle, Dire Wolves also lived in packs and were larger and more powerful than grey wolves. Smilodon, Homotherium, and American Lions we're powerful big cats, and likely social. Let's take a look at wolf behaviour today, that'll help.
1. Grey Wolves hunt in packs, in the open plains they can get pretty big, numbering in the 30's I think. Not only does that help with hunting, but that would have meant multiple eyes, ears, and noses on the alert for danger back in the Ice Age.
2. They seem to like hunting during the day, which would have helped them avoid larger predators, but analysis of the brain and eye structure of Homotherium suggest that animal was a diurnal hunter too. Plus, Homotherium was definitely a social hunter, so these animals would have been avoided by wolves.
3. Prey selection, the larger predators hunted the larger animals like bison while grey wolves hunted things like deer and elk, so choosing different prey would have been helpful in avoiding competition with their enemies.
Can you tell, that to what studies have you read to make your conclusions? For instance where is said, that Amur tigers would have hunted wolves so much, that number is low as only possible explanation? To what is based idea, that wolves would like to hunt during day? Do you think, that they don´t hunt at nighttime? Then again prey selection is one thing, which is interesting. Can you give some sources?
1. The second episode of Age of Big Cats, you can find that on YouTube.
2. Dire wolf episode from Prehistoric hunters
3. Looked at the behaviour of modern wolves, African Wild Dogs, and Dholes (avoiding competition is why the other two hunt during the day) also from what the Kratts said about wolves in a different show.
4. Tigers and wolves right here.
Miquelleetal.2005.TigersWolves.pdf (Size: 1.65 MB / Downloads: 2)
(02-10-2019, 03:28 AM)smedz Wrote: Wolves are amazing predators, even able to bring down elk on their own. But there is one place where they themselves are hunted, the Russian Far East. Here, Amur tigers have hunted wolves to the point where wolf numbers are low, that brings up the question, how did wolves survive the Pleistocene age in North America? Arctodus were too big and dangerous to handle, Dire Wolves also lived in packs and were larger and more powerful than grey wolves. Smilodon, Homotherium, and American Lions we're powerful big cats, and likely social. Let's take a look at wolf behaviour today, that'll help.
1. Grey Wolves hunt in packs, in the open plains they can get pretty big, numbering in the 30's I think. Not only does that help with hunting, but that would have meant multiple eyes, ears, and noses on the alert for danger back in the Ice Age.
2. They seem to like hunting during the day, which would have helped them avoid larger predators, but analysis of the brain and eye structure of Homotherium suggest that animal was a diurnal hunter too. Plus, Homotherium was definitely a social hunter, so these animals would have been avoided by wolves.
3. Prey selection, the larger predators hunted the larger animals like bison while grey wolves hunted things like deer and elk, so choosing different prey would have been helpful in avoiding competition with their enemies.
Can you tell, that to what studies have you read to make your conclusions? For instance where is said, that Amur tigers would have hunted wolves so much, that number is low as only possible explanation? To what is based idea, that wolves would like to hunt during day? Do you think, that they don´t hunt at nighttime? Then again prey selection is one thing, which is interesting. Can you give some sources?
1. The second episode of Age of Big Cats, you can find that on YouTube.
2. Dire wolf episode from Prehistoric hunters
3. Looked at the behaviour of modern wolves, African Wild Dogs, and Dholes (avoiding competition is why the other two hunt during the day) also from what the Kratts said about wolves in a different show.
4. Tigers and wolves right here.
Yes, there is one hypothesis, that tigers hunt wolves more, than those was it four cases, which have been observed. But then there is also that possibility, that wolves move away. So it is not so clear, that there would be masses of dead wolves in the woods. When tigers vanish, wolves are quickly all over again. For sure there are more killed wolves than 4, but there we are again in somewhat grey area.
Then what comes to wolves hunting times, wolves do move a lot during times, when not so much light, late evening and nights. Of course less footage from night times, but that is same with lions and tigers for instance, both are very active animals in night time, still all hunting footage are from daytime. It still doesn´t change it, that most activities happen in times, when there are no-one filming.
What comes to prey selection, also in that report from far east is told, that they prey same animals a lot, tigers and wolves. Also same bigger ones.
So when looking at answers, it takes some time. Far east of Russia is interesting place, but even there is still work to do for researchers. As Peter said, they have had to adjust some of their opinions before and I wouldn´t be surprised if that would happen if future too. Wolf tiger interaction is one interesting thing, how much there is killing and how much wolves just give away space without fighting, when noticing tiger nearby.
(02-10-2019, 03:28 AM)smedz Wrote: Wolves are amazing predators, even able to bring down elk on their own. But there is one place where they themselves are hunted, the Russian Far East. Here, Amur tigers have hunted wolves to the point where wolf numbers are low, that brings up the question, how did wolves survive the Pleistocene age in North America? Arctodus were too big and dangerous to handle, Dire Wolves also lived in packs and were larger and more powerful than grey wolves. Smilodon, Homotherium, and American Lions we're powerful big cats, and likely social. Let's take a look at wolf behaviour today, that'll help.
1. Grey Wolves hunt in packs, in the open plains they can get pretty big, numbering in the 30's I think. Not only does that help with hunting, but that would have meant multiple eyes, ears, and noses on the alert for danger back in the Ice Age.
2. They seem to like hunting during the day, which would have helped them avoid larger predators, but analysis of the brain and eye structure of Homotherium suggest that animal was a diurnal hunter too. Plus, Homotherium was definitely a social hunter, so these animals would have been avoided by wolves.
3. Prey selection, the larger predators hunted the larger animals like bison while grey wolves hunted things like deer and elk, so choosing different prey would have been helpful in avoiding competition with their enemies.
Can you tell, that to what studies have you read to make your conclusions? For instance where is said, that Amur tigers would have hunted wolves so much, that number is low as only possible explanation? To what is based idea, that wolves would like to hunt during day? Do you think, that they don´t hunt at nighttime? Then again prey selection is one thing, which is interesting. Can you give some sources?
1. The second episode of Age of Big Cats, you can find that on YouTube.
2. Dire wolf episode from Prehistoric hunters
3. Looked at the behaviour of modern wolves, African Wild Dogs, and Dholes (avoiding competition is why the other two hunt during the day) also from what the Kratts said about wolves in a different show.
4. Tigers and wolves right here.
Yes, there is one hypothesis, that tigers hunt wolves more, than those was it four cases, which have been observed. But then there is also that possibility, that wolves move away. So it is not so clear, that there would be masses of dead wolves in the woods. When tigers vanish, wolves are quickly all over again. For sure there are more killed wolves than 4, but there we are again in somewhat grey area.
Then what comes to wolves hunting times, wolves do move a lot during times, when not so much light, late evening and nights. Of course less footage from night times, but that is same with lions and tigers for instance, both are very active animals in night time, still all hunting footage are from daytime. It still doesn´t change it, that most activities happen in times, when there are no-one filming.
What comes to prey selection, also in that report from far east is told, that they prey same animals a lot, tigers and wolves. Also same bigger ones.
So when looking at answers, it takes some time. Far east of Russia is interesting place, but even there is still work to do for researchers. As Peter said, they have had to adjust some of their opinions before and I wouldn´t be surprised if that would happen if future too. Wolf tiger interaction is one interesting thing, how much there is killing and how much wolves just give away space without fighting, when noticing tiger nearby.
Yes, but with times, you must keep in mind, grey wolves weren't the biggest kids on the block, and I can guarantee you that quite a few of the predators hunted at night, so back then, night hunting on the plains wasn't an option, but with those animals gone, now they can hunt at night all they want. Kind of like with cougars, sort of. In North America, they rarely leave spots with trees to avoid being caught out in the open by wolves. But in the open spaces of the Andes, cougars can hunt in the open country all they want because they literally have no competition. I know that's with locations, but do you see where I'm going with this?
(02-10-2019, 03:28 AM)smedz Wrote: Wolves are amazing predators, even able to bring down elk on their own. But there is one place where they themselves are hunted, the Russian Far East. Here, Amur tigers have hunted wolves to the point where wolf numbers are low, that brings up the question, how did wolves survive the Pleistocene age in North America? Arctodus were too big and dangerous to handle, Dire Wolves also lived in packs and were larger and more powerful than grey wolves. Smilodon, Homotherium, and American Lions we're powerful big cats, and likely social. Let's take a look at wolf behaviour today, that'll help.
1. Grey Wolves hunt in packs, in the open plains they can get pretty big, numbering in the 30's I think. Not only does that help with hunting, but that would have meant multiple eyes, ears, and noses on the alert for danger back in the Ice Age.
2. They seem to like hunting during the day, which would have helped them avoid larger predators, but analysis of the brain and eye structure of Homotherium suggest that animal was a diurnal hunter too. Plus, Homotherium was definitely a social hunter, so these animals would have been avoided by wolves.
3. Prey selection, the larger predators hunted the larger animals like bison while grey wolves hunted things like deer and elk, so choosing different prey would have been helpful in avoiding competition with their enemies.
Can you tell, that to what studies have you read to make your conclusions? For instance where is said, that Amur tigers would have hunted wolves so much, that number is low as only possible explanation? To what is based idea, that wolves would like to hunt during day? Do you think, that they don´t hunt at nighttime? Then again prey selection is one thing, which is interesting. Can you give some sources?
1. The second episode of Age of Big Cats, you can find that on YouTube.
2. Dire wolf episode from Prehistoric hunters
3. Looked at the behaviour of modern wolves, African Wild Dogs, and Dholes (avoiding competition is why the other two hunt during the day) also from what the Kratts said about wolves in a different show.
4. Tigers and wolves right here.
Yes, there is one hypothesis, that tigers hunt wolves more, than those was it four cases, which have been observed. But then there is also that possibility, that wolves move away. So it is not so clear, that there would be masses of dead wolves in the woods. When tigers vanish, wolves are quickly all over again. For sure there are more killed wolves than 4, but there we are again in somewhat grey area.
Then what comes to wolves hunting times, wolves do move a lot during times, when not so much light, late evening and nights. Of course less footage from night times, but that is same with lions and tigers for instance, both are very active animals in night time, still all hunting footage are from daytime. It still doesn´t change it, that most activities happen in times, when there are no-one filming.
What comes to prey selection, also in that report from far east is told, that they prey same animals a lot, tigers and wolves. Also same bigger ones.
So when looking at answers, it takes some time. Far east of Russia is interesting place, but even there is still work to do for researchers. As Peter said, they have had to adjust some of their opinions before and I wouldn´t be surprised if that would happen if future too. Wolf tiger interaction is one interesting thing, how much there is killing and how much wolves just give away space without fighting, when noticing tiger nearby.
I add this much to tiger-wolf situation, that in past there were of course more tigers, but in this time, when that 2005 study was done, tigers have lived in very small area, there are vast areas of woods in Russia. Tigers live in only fraction of it, while bears and wolves roam all over the taiga. So there is not that situation, that these animals should compete in some small area, where all the food is. Wolves can go elsewhere without problems in normal conditions.
(02-10-2019, 03:28 AM)smedz Wrote: Wolves are amazing predators, even able to bring down elk on their own. But there is one place where they themselves are hunted, the Russian Far East. Here, Amur tigers have hunted wolves to the point where wolf numbers are low, that brings up the question, how did wolves survive the Pleistocene age in North America? Arctodus were too big and dangerous to handle, Dire Wolves also lived in packs and were larger and more powerful than grey wolves. Smilodon, Homotherium, and American Lions we're powerful big cats, and likely social. Let's take a look at wolf behaviour today, that'll help.
1. Grey Wolves hunt in packs, in the open plains they can get pretty big, numbering in the 30's I think. Not only does that help with hunting, but that would have meant multiple eyes, ears, and noses on the alert for danger back in the Ice Age.
2. They seem to like hunting during the day, which would have helped them avoid larger predators, but analysis of the brain and eye structure of Homotherium suggest that animal was a diurnal hunter too. Plus, Homotherium was definitely a social hunter, so these animals would have been avoided by wolves.
3. Prey selection, the larger predators hunted the larger animals like bison while grey wolves hunted things like deer and elk, so choosing different prey would have been helpful in avoiding competition with their enemies.
Can you tell, that to what studies have you read to make your conclusions? For instance where is said, that Amur tigers would have hunted wolves so much, that number is low as only possible explanation? To what is based idea, that wolves would like to hunt during day? Do you think, that they don´t hunt at nighttime? Then again prey selection is one thing, which is interesting. Can you give some sources?
1. The second episode of Age of Big Cats, you can find that on YouTube.
2. Dire wolf episode from Prehistoric hunters
3. Looked at the behaviour of modern wolves, African Wild Dogs, and Dholes (avoiding competition is why the other two hunt during the day) also from what the Kratts said about wolves in a different show.
4. Tigers and wolves right here.
Yes, there is one hypothesis, that tigers hunt wolves more, than those was it four cases, which have been observed. But then there is also that possibility, that wolves move away. So it is not so clear, that there would be masses of dead wolves in the woods. When tigers vanish, wolves are quickly all over again. For sure there are more killed wolves than 4, but there we are again in somewhat grey area.
Then what comes to wolves hunting times, wolves do move a lot during times, when not so much light, late evening and nights. Of course less footage from night times, but that is same with lions and tigers for instance, both are very active animals in night time, still all hunting footage are from daytime. It still doesn´t change it, that most activities happen in times, when there are no-one filming.
What comes to prey selection, also in that report from far east is told, that they prey same animals a lot, tigers and wolves. Also same bigger ones.
So when looking at answers, it takes some time. Far east of Russia is interesting place, but even there is still work to do for researchers. As Peter said, they have had to adjust some of their opinions before and I wouldn´t be surprised if that would happen if future too. Wolf tiger interaction is one interesting thing, how much there is killing and how much wolves just give away space without fighting, when noticing tiger nearby.
Yes, but with times, you must keep in mind, grey wolves weren't the biggest kids on the block, and I can guarantee you that quite a few of the predators hunted at night, so back then, night hunting on the plains wasn't an option, but with those animals gone, now they can hunt at night all they want. Kind of like with cougars, sort of. In North America, they rarely leave spots with trees to avoid being caught out in the open by wolves. But in the open spaces of the Andes, cougars can hunt in the open country all they want because they literally have no competition. I know that's with locations, but do you see where I'm going with this?
No, they weren´t but they survived to modern days, so it looks like there was no hunting in extinction back then. Competition of course, but when we look at species surviving to modern days, we can see which ones were winners in that competition in the end. I don´t see any reason why wolves couldn´t have moved and hunted there in the nighttime also back then. Hyenas are there with lions at nights all the time. Both do just fine.
(02-10-2019, 03:28 AM)smedz Wrote: Wolves are amazing predators, even able to bring down elk on their own. But there is one place where they themselves are hunted, the Russian Far East. Here, Amur tigers have hunted wolves to the point where wolf numbers are low, that brings up the question, how did wolves survive the Pleistocene age in North America? Arctodus were too big and dangerous to handle, Dire Wolves also lived in packs and were larger and more powerful than grey wolves. Smilodon, Homotherium, and American Lions we're powerful big cats, and likely social. Let's take a look at wolf behaviour today, that'll help.
1. Grey Wolves hunt in packs, in the open plains they can get pretty big, numbering in the 30's I think. Not only does that help with hunting, but that would have meant multiple eyes, ears, and noses on the alert for danger back in the Ice Age.
2. They seem to like hunting during the day, which would have helped them avoid larger predators, but analysis of the brain and eye structure of Homotherium suggest that animal was a diurnal hunter too. Plus, Homotherium was definitely a social hunter, so these animals would have been avoided by wolves.
3. Prey selection, the larger predators hunted the larger animals like bison while grey wolves hunted things like deer and elk, so choosing different prey would have been helpful in avoiding competition with their enemies.
Can you tell, that to what studies have you read to make your conclusions? For instance where is said, that Amur tigers would have hunted wolves so much, that number is low as only possible explanation? To what is based idea, that wolves would like to hunt during day? Do you think, that they don´t hunt at nighttime? Then again prey selection is one thing, which is interesting. Can you give some sources?
1. The second episode of Age of Big Cats, you can find that on YouTube.
2. Dire wolf episode from Prehistoric hunters
3. Looked at the behaviour of modern wolves, African Wild Dogs, and Dholes (avoiding competition is why the other two hunt during the day) also from what the Kratts said about wolves in a different show.
4. Tigers and wolves right here.
Yes, there is one hypothesis, that tigers hunt wolves more, than those was it four cases, which have been observed. But then there is also that possibility, that wolves move away. So it is not so clear, that there would be masses of dead wolves in the woods. When tigers vanish, wolves are quickly all over again. For sure there are more killed wolves than 4, but there we are again in somewhat grey area.
Then what comes to wolves hunting times, wolves do move a lot during times, when not so much light, late evening and nights. Of course less footage from night times, but that is same with lions and tigers for instance, both are very active animals in night time, still all hunting footage are from daytime. It still doesn´t change it, that most activities happen in times, when there are no-one filming.
What comes to prey selection, also in that report from far east is told, that they prey same animals a lot, tigers and wolves. Also same bigger ones.
So when looking at answers, it takes some time. Far east of Russia is interesting place, but even there is still work to do for researchers. As Peter said, they have had to adjust some of their opinions before and I wouldn´t be surprised if that would happen if future too. Wolf tiger interaction is one interesting thing, how much there is killing and how much wolves just give away space without fighting, when noticing tiger nearby.
Yes, but with times, you must keep in mind, grey wolves weren't the biggest kids on the block, and I can guarantee you that quite a few of the predators hunted at night, so back then, night hunting on the plains wasn't an option, but with those animals gone, now they can hunt at night all they want. Kind of like with cougars, sort of. In North America, they rarely leave spots with trees to avoid being caught out in the open by wolves. But in the open spaces of the Andes, cougars can hunt in the open country all they want because they literally have no competition. I know that's with locations, but do you see where I'm going with this?
No, they weren´t but they survived to modern days, so it looks like there was no hunting in extinction back then. Competition of course, but when we look at species surviving to modern days, we can see which ones were winners in that competition in the end. I don´t see any reason why wolves couldn´t have moved and hunted there in the nighttime also back then. Hyenas are there with lions at nights all the time. Both do just fine.
Yet African wild dogs hunt during the day. That's so they can avoid Lions and hyenas. Back then, grey wolves were the equivalents of African wild dogs in North America, Dire Wolves were the equivalents of Spotted hyenas in North America. You're right, they could have, but that doesn't mean they would have. After all, could is not the same as would. Dholes sometimes hunt at night, and they clearly have good night vision, but yet they choose to be diurnal hunters because the night is when tigers really like to hunt. They only do night hunting when food isn't as plentiful.
(02-10-2019, 03:28 AM)smedz Wrote: Wolves are amazing predators, even able to bring down elk on their own. But there is one place where they themselves are hunted, the Russian Far East. Here, Amur tigers have hunted wolves to the point where wolf numbers are low, that brings up the question, how did wolves survive the Pleistocene age in North America? Arctodus were too big and dangerous to handle, Dire Wolves also lived in packs and were larger and more powerful than grey wolves. Smilodon, Homotherium, and American Lions we're powerful big cats, and likely social. Let's take a look at wolf behaviour today, that'll help.
1. Grey Wolves hunt in packs, in the open plains they can get pretty big, numbering in the 30's I think. Not only does that help with hunting, but that would have meant multiple eyes, ears, and noses on the alert for danger back in the Ice Age.
2. They seem to like hunting during the day, which would have helped them avoid larger predators, but analysis of the brain and eye structure of Homotherium suggest that animal was a diurnal hunter too. Plus, Homotherium was definitely a social hunter, so these animals would have been avoided by wolves.
3. Prey selection, the larger predators hunted the larger animals like bison while grey wolves hunted things like deer and elk, so choosing different prey would have been helpful in avoiding competition with their enemies.
Can you tell, that to what studies have you read to make your conclusions? For instance where is said, that Amur tigers would have hunted wolves so much, that number is low as only possible explanation? To what is based idea, that wolves would like to hunt during day? Do you think, that they don´t hunt at nighttime? Then again prey selection is one thing, which is interesting. Can you give some sources?
1. The second episode of Age of Big Cats, you can find that on YouTube.
2. Dire wolf episode from Prehistoric hunters
3. Looked at the behaviour of modern wolves, African Wild Dogs, and Dholes (avoiding competition is why the other two hunt during the day) also from what the Kratts said about wolves in a different show.
4. Tigers and wolves right here.
Yes, there is one hypothesis, that tigers hunt wolves more, than those was it four cases, which have been observed. But then there is also that possibility, that wolves move away. So it is not so clear, that there would be masses of dead wolves in the woods. When tigers vanish, wolves are quickly all over again. For sure there are more killed wolves than 4, but there we are again in somewhat grey area.
Then what comes to wolves hunting times, wolves do move a lot during times, when not so much light, late evening and nights. Of course less footage from night times, but that is same with lions and tigers for instance, both are very active animals in night time, still all hunting footage are from daytime. It still doesn´t change it, that most activities happen in times, when there are no-one filming.
What comes to prey selection, also in that report from far east is told, that they prey same animals a lot, tigers and wolves. Also same bigger ones.
So when looking at answers, it takes some time. Far east of Russia is interesting place, but even there is still work to do for researchers. As Peter said, they have had to adjust some of their opinions before and I wouldn´t be surprised if that would happen if future too. Wolf tiger interaction is one interesting thing, how much there is killing and how much wolves just give away space without fighting, when noticing tiger nearby.
Yes, but with times, you must keep in mind, grey wolves weren't the biggest kids on the block, and I can guarantee you that quite a few of the predators hunted at night, so back then, night hunting on the plains wasn't an option, but with those animals gone, now they can hunt at night all they want. Kind of like with cougars, sort of. In North America, they rarely leave spots with trees to avoid being caught out in the open by wolves. But in the open spaces of the Andes, cougars can hunt in the open country all they want because they literally have no competition. I know that's with locations, but do you see where I'm going with this?
No, they weren´t but they survived to modern days, so it looks like there was no hunting in extinction back then. Competition of course, but when we look at species surviving to modern days, we can see which ones were winners in that competition in the end. I don´t see any reason why wolves couldn´t have moved and hunted there in the nighttime also back then. Hyenas are there with lions at nights all the time. Both do just fine.
Yet African wild dogs hunt during the day. That's so they can avoid Lions and hyenas. Back then, grey wolves were the equivalents of African wild dogs in North America, Dire Wolves were the equivalents of Spotted hyenas in North America. You're right, they could have, but that doesn't mean they would have. After all, could is not the same as would. Dholes sometimes hunt at night, and they clearly have good night vision, but yet they choose to be diurnal hunters because the night is when tigers really like to hunt. They only do night hunting when food isn't as plentiful.
So where is suggested, that wolves back then would have been hunting on daytime? Or is that your personal opinion?
(02-10-2019, 03:28 AM)smedz Wrote: Wolves are amazing predators, even able to bring down elk on their own. But there is one place where they themselves are hunted, the Russian Far East. Here, Amur tigers have hunted wolves to the point where wolf numbers are low, that brings up the question, how did wolves survive the Pleistocene age in North America? Arctodus were too big and dangerous to handle, Dire Wolves also lived in packs and were larger and more powerful than grey wolves. Smilodon, Homotherium, and American Lions we're powerful big cats, and likely social. Let's take a look at wolf behaviour today, that'll help.
1. Grey Wolves hunt in packs, in the open plains they can get pretty big, numbering in the 30's I think. Not only does that help with hunting, but that would have meant multiple eyes, ears, and noses on the alert for danger back in the Ice Age.
2. They seem to like hunting during the day, which would have helped them avoid larger predators, but analysis of the brain and eye structure of Homotherium suggest that animal was a diurnal hunter too. Plus, Homotherium was definitely a social hunter, so these animals would have been avoided by wolves.
3. Prey selection, the larger predators hunted the larger animals like bison while grey wolves hunted things like deer and elk, so choosing different prey would have been helpful in avoiding competition with their enemies.
Can you tell, that to what studies have you read to make your conclusions? For instance where is said, that Amur tigers would have hunted wolves so much, that number is low as only possible explanation? To what is based idea, that wolves would like to hunt during day? Do you think, that they don´t hunt at nighttime? Then again prey selection is one thing, which is interesting. Can you give some sources?
1. The second episode of Age of Big Cats, you can find that on YouTube.
2. Dire wolf episode from Prehistoric hunters
3. Looked at the behaviour of modern wolves, African Wild Dogs, and Dholes (avoiding competition is why the other two hunt during the day) also from what the Kratts said about wolves in a different show.
4. Tigers and wolves right here.
Yes, there is one hypothesis, that tigers hunt wolves more, than those was it four cases, which have been observed. But then there is also that possibility, that wolves move away. So it is not so clear, that there would be masses of dead wolves in the woods. When tigers vanish, wolves are quickly all over again. For sure there are more killed wolves than 4, but there we are again in somewhat grey area.
Then what comes to wolves hunting times, wolves do move a lot during times, when not so much light, late evening and nights. Of course less footage from night times, but that is same with lions and tigers for instance, both are very active animals in night time, still all hunting footage are from daytime. It still doesn´t change it, that most activities happen in times, when there are no-one filming.
What comes to prey selection, also in that report from far east is told, that they prey same animals a lot, tigers and wolves. Also same bigger ones.
So when looking at answers, it takes some time. Far east of Russia is interesting place, but even there is still work to do for researchers. As Peter said, they have had to adjust some of their opinions before and I wouldn´t be surprised if that would happen if future too. Wolf tiger interaction is one interesting thing, how much there is killing and how much wolves just give away space without fighting, when noticing tiger nearby.
Yes, but with times, you must keep in mind, grey wolves weren't the biggest kids on the block, and I can guarantee you that quite a few of the predators hunted at night, so back then, night hunting on the plains wasn't an option, but with those animals gone, now they can hunt at night all they want. Kind of like with cougars, sort of. In North America, they rarely leave spots with trees to avoid being caught out in the open by wolves. But in the open spaces of the Andes, cougars can hunt in the open country all they want because they literally have no competition. I know that's with locations, but do you see where I'm going with this?
No, they weren´t but they survived to modern days, so it looks like there was no hunting in extinction back then. Competition of course, but when we look at species surviving to modern days, we can see which ones were winners in that competition in the end. I don´t see any reason why wolves couldn´t have moved and hunted there in the nighttime also back then. Hyenas are there with lions at nights all the time. Both do just fine.
Yet African wild dogs hunt during the day. That's so they can avoid Lions and hyenas. Back then, grey wolves were the equivalents of African wild dogs in North America, Dire Wolves were the equivalents of Spotted hyenas in North America. You're right, they could have, but that doesn't mean they would have. After all, could is not the same as would. Dholes sometimes hunt at night, and they clearly have good night vision, but yet they choose to be diurnal hunters because the night is when tigers really like to hunt. They only do night hunting when food isn't as plentiful.
So where is suggested, that wolves back then would have been hunting on daytime? Or is that your personal opinion?
Speculation from looking at the behaviours of animals today. You have your opinion, I have mine. Let's leave it at that.
(02-10-2019, 03:28 AM)smedz Wrote: Wolves are amazing predators, even able to bring down elk on their own. But there is one place where they themselves are hunted, the Russian Far East. Here, Amur tigers have hunted wolves to the point where wolf numbers are low, that brings up the question, how did wolves survive the Pleistocene age in North America? Arctodus were too big and dangerous to handle, Dire Wolves also lived in packs and were larger and more powerful than grey wolves. Smilodon, Homotherium, and American Lions we're powerful big cats, and likely social. Let's take a look at wolf behaviour today, that'll help.
1. Grey Wolves hunt in packs, in the open plains they can get pretty big, numbering in the 30's I think. Not only does that help with hunting, but that would have meant multiple eyes, ears, and noses on the alert for danger back in the Ice Age.
2. They seem to like hunting during the day, which would have helped them avoid larger predators, but analysis of the brain and eye structure of Homotherium suggest that animal was a diurnal hunter too. Plus, Homotherium was definitely a social hunter, so these animals would have been avoided by wolves.
3. Prey selection, the larger predators hunted the larger animals like bison while grey wolves hunted things like deer and elk, so choosing different prey would have been helpful in avoiding competition with their enemies.
Can you tell, that to what studies have you read to make your conclusions? For instance where is said, that Amur tigers would have hunted wolves so much, that number is low as only possible explanation? To what is based idea, that wolves would like to hunt during day? Do you think, that they don´t hunt at nighttime? Then again prey selection is one thing, which is interesting. Can you give some sources?
1. The second episode of Age of Big Cats, you can find that on YouTube.
2. Dire wolf episode from Prehistoric hunters
3. Looked at the behaviour of modern wolves, African Wild Dogs, and Dholes (avoiding competition is why the other two hunt during the day) also from what the Kratts said about wolves in a different show.
4. Tigers and wolves right here.
Yes, there is one hypothesis, that tigers hunt wolves more, than those was it four cases, which have been observed. But then there is also that possibility, that wolves move away. So it is not so clear, that there would be masses of dead wolves in the woods. When tigers vanish, wolves are quickly all over again. For sure there are more killed wolves than 4, but there we are again in somewhat grey area.
Then what comes to wolves hunting times, wolves do move a lot during times, when not so much light, late evening and nights. Of course less footage from night times, but that is same with lions and tigers for instance, both are very active animals in night time, still all hunting footage are from daytime. It still doesn´t change it, that most activities happen in times, when there are no-one filming.
What comes to prey selection, also in that report from far east is told, that they prey same animals a lot, tigers and wolves. Also same bigger ones.
So when looking at answers, it takes some time. Far east of Russia is interesting place, but even there is still work to do for researchers. As Peter said, they have had to adjust some of their opinions before and I wouldn´t be surprised if that would happen if future too. Wolf tiger interaction is one interesting thing, how much there is killing and how much wolves just give away space without fighting, when noticing tiger nearby.
Yes, but with times, you must keep in mind, grey wolves weren't the biggest kids on the block, and I can guarantee you that quite a few of the predators hunted at night, so back then, night hunting on the plains wasn't an option, but with those animals gone, now they can hunt at night all they want. Kind of like with cougars, sort of. In North America, they rarely leave spots with trees to avoid being caught out in the open by wolves. But in the open spaces of the Andes, cougars can hunt in the open country all they want because they literally have no competition. I know that's with locations, but do you see where I'm going with this?
No, they weren´t but they survived to modern days, so it looks like there was no hunting in extinction back then. Competition of course, but when we look at species surviving to modern days, we can see which ones were winners in that competition in the end. I don´t see any reason why wolves couldn´t have moved and hunted there in the nighttime also back then. Hyenas are there with lions at nights all the time. Both do just fine.
Yet African wild dogs hunt during the day. That's so they can avoid Lions and hyenas. Back then, grey wolves were the equivalents of African wild dogs in North America, Dire Wolves were the equivalents of Spotted hyenas in North America. You're right, they could have, but that doesn't mean they would have. After all, could is not the same as would. Dholes sometimes hunt at night, and they clearly have good night vision, but yet they choose to be diurnal hunters because the night is when tigers really like to hunt. They only do night hunting when food isn't as plentiful.
So where is suggested, that wolves back then would have been hunting on daytime? Or is that your personal opinion?
Speculation from looking at the behaviours of animals today. You have your opinion, I have mine. Let's leave it at that.
It is just good to mention it, when writing about something in a way which is in contradiction with common knowledge about some animal, if that is an opinion or based on some source. Well, now it is clear.
This image of GPS tracking of multiple wolves in six different packs around Voyageurs National Park was created in the framework of the Voyageurs Wolf Project. It is an excellent illustration of how much wolf packs in general avoid each other’s range.
Image credit: Thomas Gable
*This image is copyright of its original author
[size=]In Voyageurs National Park a typical wolf pack territory is somewhere around 50-70 square miles but that can vary from year to year. So that’s about the size of the areas marked with the different colors. The white line marks the boundary of the national park.[/size] [size=]As beautifully demonstrated by the image, wolf packs generally avoid being around each other unless they are fighting for food that may be in short supply. When that occurs, they may engage in battles with other packs in order to continue have their claim on a given location as well as the food found within it.[/size] [size=]Wolves may need to shift their territory due to human activity as well. When people clear out part of their natural habitat they may have to find a new route to get to their food sources. This can also create conflicts among the various wolf packs due to overstepping their bounds.[/size] [size=]Sources: Voyageurs Wolf Project, Wolfworlds[/size]
This image of GPS tracking of multiple wolves in six different packs around Voyageurs National Park was created in the framework of the Voyageurs Wolf Project. It is an excellent illustration of how much wolf packs in general avoid each other’s range.
Image credit: Thomas Gable
*This image is copyright of its original author
In Voyageurs National Park a typical wolf pack territory is somewhere around 50-70 square miles but that can vary from year to year. So that’s about the size of the areas marked with the different colors. The white line marks the boundary of the national park. As beautifully demonstrated by the image, wolf packs generally avoid being a, round each other unless they are fighting for food that may be in short supply. When that occurs, they may engage in battles with other packs in order to continue have their claim on a given location as well as the food found within it. Wolves may need to shift their territory due to human activity as well. When people clear out part of their natural habitat they may have to find a new route to get to their food sources. This can also create conflicts among the various wolf packs due to overstepping their bounds. Sources: Voyageurs Wolf Project, Wolfworlds
That was interesting picture. We have here in Finland also real time wolf tracking, but I haven´t looked so closely it. I think, that here there is more distance between wolf packs, so no conflicts easily if one pack have to move a bit for some reason.
Wolf (Canis lupus)
Miquelleetal.2005.TigersWolves.pdf (Size: 1.65 MB / Downloads: 2)
