ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[Shadow]

(01-18-2019, 08:55 AM)Greatearth Wrote: About tiger and dhole interaction. I think that tiger is defeating dhole pack most of times.
Just look male grizzly bear is fighting against wolf pack in the USA and male lions are defending its pride against hyena pack in the Africa. Why would powerful animal like tiger, which is more powerful/stronger than lion, would defeated by dhole pack? Dhole is seems to be more dangerous when they are with pack. Still, it would be useless if it is prime powerful male tigers.  Why would grey wolf is heading extinct where tiger population is rising in the Russian Far East? Howeve,r any situations can happen, I am sure dhole pack can kill tigers if entire dholes fight against tiger to the death. Like this one guy in Tanzania killed leopard without weapon when leopard attacked him fist (I heard this 2~3 months ago). Is it common to see man is defeating leopard with his two hands? 95% leopard will easily crush the adult man.
In general, tiger and dhole pack would leave each other alone. It's the same for other animals like bear and crocodile as well.

Btw what comes to grey wolves, they aren´t going to extinction in Russia, but tigers have expelled those in areas where tigers live. Wolves have just gone elsewhere, there is so much space and forests in Siberia and Russia :) Reply

[Greatearth]

(01-18-2019, 12:31 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-18-2019, 08:55 AM)Greatearth Wrote: About tiger and dhole interaction. I think that tiger is defeating dhole pack most of times.
Just look male grizzly bear is fighting against wolf pack in the USA and male lions are defending its pride against hyena pack in the Africa. Why would powerful animal like tiger, which is more powerful/stronger than lion, would defeated by dhole pack? Dhole is seems to be more dangerous when they are with pack. Still, it would be useless if it is prime powerful male tigers.  Why would grey wolf is heading extinct where tiger population is rising in the Russian Far East? Howeve,r any situations can happen, I am sure dhole pack can kill tigers if entire dholes fight against tiger to the death. Like this one guy in Tanzania killed leopard without weapon when leopard attacked him fist (I heard this 2~3 months ago). Is it common to see man is defeating leopard with his two hands? 95% leopard will easily crush the adult man.
In general, tiger and dhole pack would leave each other alone. It's the same for other animals like bear and crocodile as well.

Anyway this is interesting topic and we will see what old and new sources can be found. Like have some others than William Rice heard or seen tiger to climb to a tree to get away from dholes? That is something what tigers don´t do usually and Rice mention that, but so far only in few lines. Anyway that kind of observations for sure would explain a lot of dhole reputation. Tiger in tree escaping something back then in 19th century, that kind of story would have been spreading even without social media :)

Can some tigers been killed, why not, they are flesh and blood like any animal and their skin has no armour, so if dholes have been more aggressive sometimes and big pack attacking from all directions, of course tiger will bleed, even while killing many dholes. That is of course possible, question is, that are dholes or have they been really willing to lose so many members from a pack as it takes to injure or kill a tiger, it is clear, that price is heavy, even though dholes are small and agile.

Did he mentioned the gender of tiger? Large male tiger can't climb tree really well due to their size. Ofc subadult tiger, female tiger, old and sick tigers would run away if it is more than 20 dholes.
So why so many people in the world (not just lion lover, some lion biologists) believes male lion is destroying more than 20 groups of hyena. Even in youtube, I've seen many videos of one male lion is chasing away 20-30 hyenas
male grizzly is a little different since I only saw around 7 wolves vs 1 grizzly Reply

[Greatearth]

(01-18-2019, 12:56 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-18-2019, 08:55 AM)Greatearth Wrote: About tiger and dhole interaction. I think that tiger is defeating dhole pack most of times.
Just look male grizzly bear is fighting against wolf pack in the USA and male lions are defending its pride against hyena pack in the Africa. Why would powerful animal like tiger, which is more powerful/stronger than lion, would defeated by dhole pack? Dhole is seems to be more dangerous when they are with pack. Still, it would be useless if it is prime powerful male tigers.  Why would grey wolf is heading extinct where tiger population is rising in the Russian Far East? Howeve,r any situations can happen, I am sure dhole pack can kill tigers if entire dholes fight against tiger to the death. Like this one guy in Tanzania killed leopard without weapon when leopard attacked him fist (I heard this 2~3 months ago). Is it common to see man is defeating leopard with his two hands? 95% leopard will easily crush the adult man.
In general, tiger and dhole pack would leave each other alone. It's the same for other animals like bear and crocodile as well.

Btw what comes to grey wolves, they aren´t going to extinction in Russia, but tigers have expelled those in areas where tigers live. Wolves have just gone elsewhere, there is so much space and forests in Siberia and Russia :)

If you read/understand what I wrote. That was what I meant. Tigers drove away wolves from their habitats, and wolf population is extinct(or better to say disappear to other area) in tiger's habitat Reply

[Shadow]

(01-18-2019, 09:55 PM)Greatearth Wrote:

(01-18-2019, 12:56 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-18-2019, 08:55 AM)Greatearth Wrote: About tiger and dhole interaction. I think that tiger is defeating dhole pack most of times.
Just look male grizzly bear is fighting against wolf pack in the USA and male lions are defending its pride against hyena pack in the Africa. Why would powerful animal like tiger, which is more powerful/stronger than lion, would defeated by dhole pack? Dhole is seems to be more dangerous when they are with pack. Still, it would be useless if it is prime powerful male tigers.  Why would grey wolf is heading extinct where tiger population is rising in the Russian Far East? Howeve,r any situations can happen, I am sure dhole pack can kill tigers if entire dholes fight against tiger to the death. Like this one guy in Tanzania killed leopard without weapon when leopard attacked him fist (I heard this 2~3 months ago). Is it common to see man is defeating leopard with his two hands? 95% leopard will easily crush the adult man.
In general, tiger and dhole pack would leave each other alone. It's the same for other animals like bear and crocodile as well.

Btw what comes to grey wolves, they aren´t going to extinction in Russia, but tigers have expelled those in areas where tigers live. Wolves have just gone elsewhere, there is so much space and forests in Siberia and Russia :)

If you read/understand what I wrote. That was what I meant. Tigers drove away wolves from their habitats, and wolf population is extinct(or better to say disappear to other area) in tiger's habitat

I guess, that male tigers can climb a little bit because male lions climb too and sometimes surprisingly high. There is not so big difference between male tiger and lion in reality. 

And I understood what you said, but I still wrote about it, because some people could get wrong impression. If tigers would vanish suddenly for some reason, wolves would soon be back there.

What comes to lions and hyenas, I have seen a documentary where was lion pride and females eating. Then hyenas came there and started to harass them, it was said, that there were over 60 hyenas. Male lion came there and broke spine of one hyena with one paw swipe, others retreated. Then again in youtube there is a video where about 20 hyenas harass lone male lion and there is some fighting and biting until another male lion comes there and then hyenas retreat. Why some people believe some things, I have no idea. In youtube there  are so many tiger fanboys without any source criticism confronted by an army of lion fanboys with same attitude :) "Tigers always win.... tigers never flee..." "Lions always win.... lions never flee...". Still both win and lose, and flee. Of course anyone with any common sense doesn´t take those statements seriously. So I think, that it is no point to think why some people in youtube threads are delusional and denying everything what doesn´t fit to their "religion" :) They are just children or childish "adults", simple.

As I and others have noticed, dholes have certain reputation and it is interesting to look closer, that what can be found behind it. So at this point I personally don´t debate too much about this. I am trying to find sources and more information when time. 

Btw that man killing leopard bare handed... do you mean that old situation, where that hunter first shot leopard twice while leopard was closing up? Then managed to kill that leopard and was badly wounded himself, most probably he would have died too, but luckily there were people and he could get medical treatment almost immediately. That case? It was that small leopard, 45 kg if I remember right. Reply

[Shadow]

(01-18-2019, 09:55 PM)Greatearth Wrote:

(01-18-2019, 12:56 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-18-2019, 08:55 AM)Greatearth Wrote: About tiger and dhole interaction. I think that tiger is defeating dhole pack most of times.
Just look male grizzly bear is fighting against wolf pack in the USA and male lions are defending its pride against hyena pack in the Africa. Why would powerful animal like tiger, which is more powerful/stronger than lion, would defeated by dhole pack? Dhole is seems to be more dangerous when they are with pack. Still, it would be useless if it is prime powerful male tigers.  Why would grey wolf is heading extinct where tiger population is rising in the Russian Far East? Howeve,r any situations can happen, I am sure dhole pack can kill tigers if entire dholes fight against tiger to the death. Like this one guy in Tanzania killed leopard without weapon when leopard attacked him fist (I heard this 2~3 months ago). Is it common to see man is defeating leopard with his two hands? 95% leopard will easily crush the adult man.
In general, tiger and dhole pack would leave each other alone. It's the same for other animals like bear and crocodile as well.

Btw what comes to grey wolves, they aren´t going to extinction in Russia, but tigers have expelled those in areas where tigers live. Wolves have just gone elsewhere, there is so much space and forests in Siberia and Russia :)

If you read/understand what I wrote. That was what I meant. Tigers drove away wolves from their habitats, and wolf population is extinct(or better to say disappear to other area) in tiger's habitat

About tigers and climbing, this one could be adult male:

One case also from some distance:

Anyway here male tiger in zoo and rope coiled on tree to help. Still this indicates, that even male tiger should be able to climb to a tree too. Actually I would be surprised if not because, as I said, male lions do that too and there is no significant size difference after all.

Reply

[Spalea]

@Shadow :

Look at this video : a tiger chasing a leopard. The both felids climbed onto a tree. The only one difference: because of his weight, the tiger wasn't as comfortable as the leopard.

Reply

[Shadow]

(01-19-2019, 06:23 AM)Spalea Wrote: @Shadow :

Look at this video : a tiger chasing a leopard. The both felids climbed onto a tree. The only one difference: because of his weight, the tiger wasn't as comfortable as the leopard.

Yes, it happens quite easily. When time to move to some branch, it changes interesting :) Some funny recordings when bigger lions and tigers try to do that. Reply

[brotherbear]

(01-16-2019, 08:40 PM)Wolverine Wrote:

(01-16-2019, 09:46 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Again, the videos that you posted shows that the dholes are very nervous and are trying to disctract the tiger or drive it away. Tiger, on the other hand, dominate them, attack them or simply ignore them.

I have hard time to see a "domination" in some of these videos. Yes, dholes are cautious, but they obviously don't afraid of the tiger at all,  they are impudent, cautious and curious altogether.

I agree Wolverine. You definitely know what science is. Reply

[Shadow]

Here is one article giving a little bit "behind the scenes" story about tiger conservation and research in Russian far east. Maybe some have read, maybe something new and interesting to others.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/obs...-the-sign/ Reply

[Shadow]

I put this one also, from same source a short story from Vladimir Arsenyev describing one incident he experienced in time, when no gps or mobile phones.... anyone who have been in the woods at night time can for sure identify to what he writes in certain level even if not been lost. It is something else than in daytime, when no sunlight, no flashlight and in dense forest moonlight too limited or blocked completely.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/gue...-the-land/ Reply

[Wolverine]

"Natural History of Mammalia of India and Ceylon" by Robert Sterndale, British naturalist, 1884
Description of tiger interactions with different jungle folks, including Indian wild dogs (in the bottom)

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://archive.org/details/naturalhisto...er/page/n9

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Rishi]

Duplicate of post.

(01-20-2019, 01:00 PM)peter Wrote:

(01-20-2019, 10:05 AM)Richardrli Wrote: Is there agreement now on whether the Javan tiger was larger than the Sumatran tiger?

As I measured enough skulls to get to conclusions, I decided for a few tables a year or two ago. They were not posted. When I finish the other tables, I will post everything I have. 

Here's a few results.

a - In greatest total length, wild male Javan tigers top the table. 
b - Same in captive males. 
c - In wild females, there is no significant difference between Java and Sumatra.
d - Skulls of captive Sumatran tigresses are longer (greatest total length) than those of captive Javan tigresses. 
e - Individual variation in Sumatran skulls is more pronounced than in Javan skulls (males and females).
f - In greatest total skull length, there are significant differences between young adults and adults. 

I'm not sure if there's a relation between skull size, body length and mass. There's good info on Sumatra, but Java is an enigma. At the moment, I'm reading books written by naturalists and hunters. I'm also trying to find hunting magazins. I might decide to visit a few institutes in order to find out more.

Reply

[peter]

Here's another thought.

During the British Raj, hunting was as popular as it gets. Although only few wrote about their experiences, the amount of books published was staggering. I'm not saying all make for good reading, but many are interesting.

Visit 'Tiger Hunting Books' or 'Safari Press' and see if there's anything you like. My advice is to buy a few. 

Some books are on the internet. Here's one you should read:
  
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.155733/page/n181

Brig.-Gen. R.G. Burton was a hunter and a writer. His passion, apart from tigers, was accuracy. In capitals. If you want to know more about tiger and dhole interaction a century ago, go to pages 100-104. The rest of 'The Book of the Tiger' (1933) is highly recommended as well.

Some weeks ago, I posted a few stories about tigers and dholes I read in books written by Kenneth Anderson. He was one of the last who actually saw dholes chasing tigers in southern India, but he wasn't the only one. Some of those who were stationed in northern India well before before 1900 also wrote about tigers and dholes. 

Not one of us is saying that Ullas Karanth is wrong about tigers and dholes today. But today is different from yesterday. Reply

[peter]

'Seonee - Camp Life on the Satpura Range' (R.A. Sterndale, 1877)

This book is considered a classic by many. Published in 1877, it enables you to go back to Central India a century and a half ago. 

The link was recently posted by Wolverine in the dhole thread. As not all know about that thread, I decided to post the link here as well. Highly recommended:

https://archive.org/details/cu31924079586685/page/n113 Reply

[Panther]

Here's Ullas Karanth's (Considered by many as the worlds top leading tiger expert) take on this subject from his book:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

As you can clearly see, even female tigers easily dominate and directly usurp kills from Dhole packs, even killing some of them in the process.

Kenneth Anderson's account is not verified and is disputed by the likes of Karanth, who clearly doesn't believe such nonsense.

Here's one of the greatest biologists of all time, V.Mazak's take on this subject too:

*This image is copyright of its original author

"Rarely bears, wild pigs, gaurs, or other large ungulates can mortally wound a tiger"...

"Nonetheless, it seems that wild dogs could kill only ill or otherwise weakened tigers"...

Here's another legit source, stating: "One has to take Anderson on faith as there are no verified stories of dholes actually killing a tiger, and such tales may be more legend than reality. According to Jenks, the much more common outcome is likely death by tiger"...

And also stating: "However, there are also records of direct competition... this include cases where dholes have been killed by tigers and attacked by leopards, indicating both larger carnivores may be behaviourally dominant over dholes.”...

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/...er-ignored Reply