There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
It will be interesting to see and compare information. Karanth writes, that dhole packs can be temporarily 20 individuals and doubts Anderson and 30 individuals pack size. We have photos proving, that there are at least 20 dholes in one pack even in modern days after near extinction of dholes and observation of a pack with 28 members,m which looks like to be relatively realiable. So it looks like that it can be proven with quite new observations, that Anderson isn´t exaggerating when writing about packs over 30 individuals. Even if that size of pack is soon to be losing some members, it might keep that size a few months. In that time it sounds like to be a force to reckoned with.
7 Dholes and they had tried to reach a calf Gaur which was hiding behind a group of adults just inside the forest. Then a young bull Gaur came charging forward and tried to scare the pack away but only succeeded in getting surrounded and it looked at one point as if it would get taken down.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
But three other adult Gaurs came charging out and saved the lone bull. So the dog pack quickly gave up and settled down for a play in the middle of the meadow.
01-17-2019, 12:06 PM( This post was last modified: 01-17-2019, 12:12 PM by Rishi )
(01-17-2019, 11:27 AM)peter Wrote:
(01-17-2019, 03:09 AM)paul cooper Wrote:
(01-16-2019, 08:14 PM)Wolverine Wrote:
(01-16-2019, 09:55 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Little question, how many events between tigers and dholes witnessed Mr Anderson?
From the other side, Dr Karanth, Dr Chundawat and others had witnessed more events and in all the cases the tiger dominate. Remember that in these days there are still groups of up to 15 dholes, but the problem is how many are "adults" and how many are large "cubs". I think that Dr Karanth is correct in suspect the event recorded by Mr Anderson.
I do think that a weak/ill tiger/lion can be attacked and maybe killed by packs of dogs, like Mazák stated, but certainly that will not be the norm and modern evidence do not support the old claims.
The fact that Mr Karanth (and Mr Chundawat) has not witnessed personaly a tiger attacked by dholes doesn't mean that such an events have never happened. Such a statement from his side will be a sign a high self esteem and a basically ridiculous. In order to make general conclusions about tiger-dhole relations we need to collect all information in the last 2 centuries from hunters, local people and scientists. Blaming Kenneth Anderson, a man who spent his entire life in the the Indian jungles Mr Karanth became himself vulnerable for accusations. While highly talented stories of Anderson will be read even after century, frankly speaking Karanth texts are one of the most boring and clumsy scientific texts I have ever try to read.
Zoological survey of India, tiger injured by dholes in Kanha, 1963
*This image is copyright of its original author
I think you just made yourself vulnerable for accusations. Karanth, a guy who has been in the field for decades and observed the interactions between the animals, dholes never threatened tigers. And that is all there is to it. Learn what science is. Dholes most likely only attack injured or juvenile tigers.
Wrong. The goal of a debate is to explore the topic in every possible way. Exploration means nothing can be dismissed up front or out of hand.
Is exploration needed regarding tigers and dholes? Most definitely. There are plenty of observations on interactions between dholes and tigers, but I never saw something even close to a good explanation. Interspecific relations between tigers and dholes are not well understood.
We could, as some did, disqualify some sources and opt for one only, but the best way to get to knowledge is to collect as much information as possible and try to find an explanation. Here's another attempt.
Not a great source most of the time, but what I read about dholes was interesting. Apparently, dholes have been around for quite some time. In the Late Pleistocene, they were almost everywhere. Here's a comparison between the Javan dhole and Pleistocene dholes:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Over time, they disappeared nearly everywhere. They withdrew to the eastern part of Asia. According to Velter (see my last post in this thread), 'red wolves' were well-known in the Russian Far East less than a century ago. Today, the Ussuri dhole seems to be gone.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Not too far away, however, dholes are still present. Numberwise, the situation is not good. Like many other species, dholes are walking the edge.
As to the name. In many regions, they were known as 'mad dogs'. This qualification most probably refers to the way they behaved in the recent past. Dholes are very good hunters. The skill and tenacity displayed during a hunt often surprised observers. They were so good at it, that many thought they would destroy everything in reach. For this reason, bounties were paid. Another likely reason many perceived them as 'mad' was the way they opposed large and dangerous competitors like leopards, tigers and bears. Anderson saw them corner sloth bears, leopards and hyenas and chase tigers in southern India less than a century ago.
Although they had a bad reputation everywhere, dholes, as far as I know, never posed a threat to domestic animals and humans. Wolves still kill people in the southwestern part of Asia in particular, but dholes seem to have a clean sheet in this respect. People still fear wolves. For this reason, information about there whereabouts was and is considered useful. Dholes, on the other hand, posed no threat. The result is poor knowledge.
Dholes are not the only canids poorly understood. In Surinam, French Guyana and the northern part of Brazil, Indians told me about bushdogs. Today, there is some info on them, but it still isn't much. Same for wild dogs in Java and Sumatra. I talked to people who spent most of their life in Sumatra. All of them told me about the wild dogs, but it was difficult to find good information about them. The Indian dhole is more visible, but so far biologists more or less missed them.
Most canids are very visible. The result is an impressive series of books and articles. Those who make their home in the forest, however, are not well-known. Same for dholes living in central parts of Asia. These mountain dogs, like their relatives in southeastern Asia, are very elusive. The result is no information.
b - Changes of behavior over time
One of the few who knows a bit about dholes in India is Ullas Karanth. In his experience, dholes today live in smallish packs. Although some of us posted visual evidence of exceptions, small seems to be the general rule today. Dholes still are good hunters moving from one place to another. The problem is competition. In Nepal and India, they face tigers, leopards, Himalayan black bears, hyenas, wolves, jackals, sloth bears, wild boars, different species of small cats, snakes and muggers. Humans no doubt also displace them at times.
Individual dholes are too small to defend their kill from other predators. Furthermore, they are hunted by larger predators. In order to respond to both threats, dholes decided for cooperation and attitude:
An average family group (2-10 individuals) is more than capable to keep most competitors at bay. In spite of their small size, they are also capable to engage quite large competitors. The big cat problem, however, hasn't been quite solved. Although they tree the occasional leopard and even tiger cubs, dholes are still hunted and displaced by adult tigers. Doesn't happen often, but it happens.
Today, biologists say large carnivores dominate smaller carnivores, but a century ago dholes had a different opinion on the matter. Packs were larger and there is no doubt they confronted big cats at times.
But surely these stories about packs of 30 or 40 are a result of fantasy? I mean, these hunting writers like Anderson would do just about anything to sell a few more copies, wouldn't they? Furthermore, how many examples of exquisit story-telling have we seen in the past?
I agree an opinion is the easiest and quickest way to get rid of stories, but the question is if it would be the correct decision. Let's just assume for one minute that at least some of these stories about dholes and tigers could have been true. If so, it would mean that animals would be able to change their behavior over time. Any examples?
c - Boomgaard on animals changing their behavior over time
Peter Boomgaard wrote 'Frontier of Fear - Tigers and People in the Malay World, 1600-1950'. It was published in 2001. Boomgaard took ten years to read all the old official documents on tiger attacks in Java and Sumatra. During these years, he felt completely isolated. In the end, he produced something of great value. His achiement will not be repeated, as the sources he used have been dispersed.
When readong, he noticed that tigers in Indonesia seemed to have changed their behavior over time. Tigers are intelligent animals, but so are all others and carnivores in particular. Interesting read:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
d - Interactions between tigers and dholes
Before the internet, we had books and the occasional documentary. Today, we have the internet and You Tube. I've seen quite a few videos featuring tigers and dholes. What did I see?
Dholes are way smaller than tigers. Tigers not only displace them, but also kill them every now and then. Same, in the eating department, for leopards. Tigers, leopards and dholes are neighbours. No matter where they go, wild dogs will face tigers and leopards just about everywhere in India. Chances are they will treat them in the same way as in their former neighbourhood. How to respond?
Wolves operate in packs in winter, but not in spring and summer. The result is that wolves have been killed by tigers in the Russian far East. Dholes, however, live in packs all the time. Every pack has sentinels. When an enemy is spotted, the pack is informed. The pack doesn't run, but approaches. This needed to get information. During the inquest, individuals approach the cat from all angles to see in what way he responds. When they're sure about the intentions of the cat, they leave him. One or two dholes, however, will keep an eye on the cat.
Every time the cat is close, the dogs will use the same strategy. Every cat responds in a different way to pressure. One individual will respond in an aggressive way, whereas another won't respond at all.
My guess is dholes are more wary of a tigress with cubs than of an adult male. Adult male tigers have large territories and hunt large animals. They're not interested in dholes. A tigress, however, has a much smaller territory. When she has cubs, the territory will be even smaller. If she can kill a wild dog or displace a pack, she will. If she's healthy and aggressive, the dogs might move out for a few months. If the tigress is struggling, the pack will keep an eye on her. Chances are they will harrass her and even visit her den. If they see a cub, they will kill it. All this to convince the tigress to move out of the dogs territory. In a way, it's an all-or-nothing attitude.
When a young adult male tiger or tigress settles in a district occupied by dholes, the dogs will visit the newcomer. When it's a male, chances are they will leave him at peace. When it's a tigress, they will try to convince her to move elsewhere. If the tigress is inexperienced or insecure, they will harrass her whenever possible. Tigers don't like to be seen or harrassed. If they know they're monitored, they often respond in an aggressive way.
In lean times, there could be competition for food. Dholes might decide to cooperate with other packs in order to be able to hunt larger animals. Today, most reserves are well-stocked, but a century ago things could have been very different. In southern India, a severe drought might have resulted in starvation and extreme behavior. As social hunters, dholes no doubt suffer more than solitary hunters. In these conditions, they could have decided to defend their kill no matter what or displace leopards and tigers. If they succeeded, chances are they would have tried again. Learned behavior.
When wolves or dholes try to defend their kill or try to displace large opponents, they usually use probing attacks. In some conditions, however, they will not hesitate to fight a bear or a large cat.
I recently saw a documentary about a wolf pack in northeastern Italy on the BBC. In late autumn, close to starvation, they killed a large deer. A big male brown bear appropiated the deer, but he wasn't allowed to feed. The alpha male wolf in particular was very aggressive. He took risks time and again, was injured and died some days later. But the bear left after the incident. Self sacrifice? No. Hunger.
Some of you now doubt saw 'Dynasties', also BBC. One episode is about lions. Two young males were close to starting their own frim. One of them, a big boy, jumped a pool and entered unknown territory. He was met by the clan. They immediately attacked him. Although he was massive, there were too many. When the end seemed near, his mate suddenly appeared out of nowhere. It was a close call.
Could a pack of dholes injure, displace or kill an adult tiger? Today, it's very unlikely. The packs are too small and tigers are bigger than a century ago. During a serious encounter, dholes would be crippled or killed outright.
In different conditions, behavior can change. When a pack close to starvation has to choose between another enery-consuming long hunt, migration or a confrontation, They could opt for a confrontation.
Big cats are very suited for a one-on-one. They have the weapons and can focus like no other animal. When attacked by multiple smaller opponents, however, they would no doubt struggle. The African wild dog would never attack a big cat, but hyenas and dholes seem to have a different attitude. When they have a deciding advantage in numbers and weight, anything is possible.
Adult hyenas have a crippling bite, but dholes don't. For this reason, it would take a long time to convince a tiger. Adult male tigers most probably are out of the question, but I'm not so sure about a subadult or a tigress. For a 'mad dog', anything is possible. What Kenneth Anderson saw before 1940 happened. He also saw dholes attack leopards, hyenas and sloth bears.
What I'm saying is nothing should be excluded out of hand. Today, Ullas Karanth no doubt is right. This, however, doesn't mean that Kenneth Anderson was wrong. Different time and different circumstances. After World War Two, the human population in India exploded and forests quickly disappeared. Big cats always get most attention, but herbivores in particular suffered after the british left. When they had almost disappeared, the carnivores followed.
I wonder what it was like in, say, 1850 or 1910. Based on what I read, I'd say India was a completely different place. Not seldom, hunters wondered who would survive the war between big cats and humans. In those conditions, it's unlikely that dholes operated in packs of 5-12 individuals.
e - A few pictures
India - not seldom, dholes drown the animals they hunt:
*This image is copyright of its original author
China:
*This image is copyright of its original author
India - dholes attacking a wild boar:
*This image is copyright of its original author
They do use water for cornering fleeing prey a lot..
There's another video by @Jimmy above.
This one is from Periyar Tiger Reserve, South India. On the bank of the reservoir & filmed from the safari-boat.
And this one beside a tea-plantation hear Meghmalai.
Probably Tadoba or somewhere near it, judging from the colour of the soil.
01-17-2019, 12:53 PM( This post was last modified: 01-17-2019, 08:39 PM by ShadowEdit Reason: typos
)
(01-17-2019, 11:27 AM)peter Wrote:
(01-17-2019, 03:09 AM)paul cooper Wrote:
(01-16-2019, 08:14 PM)Wolverine Wrote:
(01-16-2019, 09:55 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Little question, how many events between tigers and dholes witnessed Mr Anderson?
From the other side, Dr Karanth, Dr Chundawat and others had witnessed more events and in all the cases the tiger dominate. Remember that in these days there are still groups of up to 15 dholes, but the problem is how many are "adults" and how many are large "cubs". I think that Dr Karanth is correct in suspect the event recorded by Mr Anderson.
I do think that a weak/ill tiger/lion can be attacked and maybe killed by packs of dogs, like Mazák stated, but certainly that will not be the norm and modern evidence do not support the old claims.
The fact that Mr Karanth (and Mr Chundawat) has not witnessed personaly a tiger attacked by dholes doesn't mean that such an events have never happened. Such a statement from his side will be a sign a high self esteem and a basically ridiculous. In order to make general conclusions about tiger-dhole relations we need to collect all information in the last 2 centuries from hunters, local people and scientists. Blaming Kenneth Anderson, a man who spent his entire life in the the Indian jungles Mr Karanth became himself vulnerable for accusations. While highly talented stories of Anderson will be read even after century, frankly speaking Karanth texts are one of the most boring and clumsy scientific texts I have ever try to read.
Zoological survey of India, tiger injured by dholes in Kanha, 1963
*This image is copyright of its original author
I think you just made yourself vulnerable for accusations. Karanth, a guy who has been in the field for decades and observed the interactions between the animals, dholes never threatened tigers. And that is all there is to it. Learn what science is. Dholes most likely only attack injured or juvenile tigers.
Wrong. The goal of a debate is to explore the topic in every possible way. Exploration means nothing can be dismissed up front or out of hand.
Is exploration needed regarding tigers and dholes? Most definitely. There are plenty of observations on interactions between dholes and tigers, but I never saw something even close to a good explanation. Interspecific relations between tigers and dholes are not well understood.
We could, as some did, disqualify some sources and opt for one only, but the best way to get to knowledge is to collect as much information as possible and try to find an explanation for what we see. Here's another attempt.
Not a great source most of the time, but what I read about dholes was interesting. Apparently, dholes have been around for quite some time. In the Late Pleistocene, they were almost everywhere. Here's a comparison between the Javan dhole and Pleistocene dholes:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Over time, dholes retreated to the eastern part of Asia. According to Velter (see my last post in this thread), 'red wolves' were well-known in the Russian Far East less than a century ago. Today, the Ussuri dhole seems to be gone:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Not too far away (north- and southwestern China and further west), however, dholes are still present. Numberwise, the situation is not good. Like many other species, dholes are walking the edge.
As to the name. In many regions, they were known as 'mad dogs'. This qualification most probably refers to the way they behaved in the recent past. Dholes are very good hunters. The skill and tenacity displayed during a hunt often surprised observers. They were so good at it, that many thought they would destroy everything in reach. For this reason, bounties were paid. Another likely reason many perceived them as 'mad' was the way they opposed large and dangerous competitors like leopards, tigers and bears. Anderson saw them corner sloth bears, leopards and hyenas and chase tigers in southern India less than a century ago.
Although they had a bad reputation everywhere, dholes, as far as I know, never posed a threat to domestic animals and humans. Wolves still kill people in the southwestern part of Asia in particular, but dholes seem to have a clean sheet in this respect. People still fear wolves. For this reason, information about there whereabouts was and is considered useful. Dholes, on the other hand, posed no threat. The result is poor knowledge.
Dholes are not the only canids poorly understood. In Surinam, French Guyana and the northern part of Brazil, Indians told me about bushdogs. Today, there is some info on them, but it still isn't much. Same for wild dogs in Java and Sumatra. I talked to people who spent most of their life in Sumatra. All of them told me about the wild dogs, but it was difficult to find good information about them. The Indian dhole is more visible, but so far biologists more or less missed them.
Most canids are very visible. The result is an impressive series of books and articles. Those who make their home in the forest, however, are not well-known. Same for dholes living in elevated regions in central parts of Asia. These mountain dogs are very elusive as well. The result is no information.
b - Behavior
One of the few who knows a bit about dholes in India is Ullas Karanth. In his experience, dholes today live in smallish packs. Although some of us posted visual evidence of exceptions, small seems to be the general rule today. Dholes still are good hunters moving from one place to another. The problem is competition. In Nepal and India, they face tigers, leopards, Himalayan black bears, hyenas, wolves, jackals, sloth bears, wild boars, different species of small cats and muggers. Humans no doubt also displace them at times.
At 30-45 pounds, dholes are too small to defend their kill from other predators. Furthermore, they are hunted by larger predators. In order to respond to both threats, dholes decided for cooperation and attitude:
An average family group (2-10 individuals) is more than capable to keep most competitors at bay. In spite of their small size, they are also capable to engage quite large competitors. The big cat problem, however, hasn't been quite solved. Although they tree the occasional leopard and even tiger cubs, dholes are still hunted and displaced by adult tigers. Doesn't happen often, but it happens.
Today, biologists say large carnivores dominate smaller carnivores, but a century ago dholes had a different opinion on the matter. Packs were larger and there is no doubt they confronted big cats at times.
But surely these stories about packs of 30 or 40 are a result of fantasy? I mean, these hunting writers like Anderson would do just about anything to sell a few more copies, wouldn't they? Furthermore, how many examples of exquisit story-telling have we seen in the past?
I agree an opinion is the easiest and quickest way to get rid of stories, but the question is if it would be the correct decision. Let's just assume for one minute that at least some of these stories about dholes and tigers could have been true. If so, it would mean that animals would be able to change their behavior over time. Any examples?
c - Boomgaard on animals changing their behavior over time
Peter Boomgaard wrote 'Frontier of Fear - Tigers and People in the Malay World, 1600-1950'. It was published in 2001. Boomgaard took ten years to read all the old official documents on tiger attacks in Java and Sumatra. During these years, he felt completely isolated. In the end, he produced something of great value. His achievement will not be repeated, as the sources he used have been dispersed. Besides, who would be prepared to read old documents for ten years?
When reading, he noticed that tigers in Indonesia seemed to have changed their behavior over time. Tigers are intelligent animals, but so are all others and carnivores in particular. Interesting read:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
d - Interactions between tigers and dholes
Before the internet, we had books and the occasional documentary. Today, we have the internet and You Tube. I've seen quite a few videos featuring tigers and dholes. What did I see?
Dholes are way smaller than tigers. Tigers not only displace them, but also kill them every now and then. Same for leopards. Tigers, leopards and dholes are neighbours. No matter where they go, wild dogs will face tigers and leopards just about everywhere in India. Chances are they will treat them in the same way as in their former neighbourhood. How to respond?
Wolves operate in packs in winter, but not in spring and summer. The result is that wolves have been killed by tigers in the Russian far East. Dholes, however, live in packs all the time. Every pack has sentinels. When an enemy is spotted, the pack is informed. The pack doesn't run, but approaches the enemy. This is needed to get information. During the inquest, individuals approach the cat from all angles to see in what way he responds. When they're sure about the intentions of the cat, they leave him. One or two dholes, however, will keep an eye on the cat.
Every time the cat is close, the dogs will use the same strategy. Every cat responds in a different way to pressure. One individual will respond in an aggressive way, whereas another won't respond at all.
My guess is dholes are more wary of a tigress with cubs than of an adult male. Adult male tigers have large territories and hunt large animals. They're not interested in dholes. A tigress, however, has a much smaller territory. When she has cubs, the territory will be even smaller. If she can kill a wild dog or displace a pack, she will. If she's healthy and aggressive, the dogs might move out for a few months. If the tigress is struggling, the pack will keep an eye on her. Chances are they will harrass her and even visit her den. All this to convince the tigress to move out of the district. In a way, it's an all-or-nothing attitude.
Here's nice photograph. Tigress and two dholes:
*This image is copyright of its original author
When a young adult male tiger or tigress settles in a district occupied by dholes, the dogs will visit the newcomer. When it's a tigress, they will try to convince her to move elsewhere. If the tigress is inexperienced or insecure, they will harrass her whenever possible. Tigers don't like to be seen. If they know they're monitored, they often leave.
In lean times, there could be competition for food. Dholes might decide to cooperate with other packs in order to be able to hunt larger animals. Today, most reserves are well-stocked, but a century ago things could have been very different. In southern India, a severe drought might have resulted in starvation and extreme behavior. As social hunters, dholes no doubt suffer more than solitary hunters. In these conditions, they could have decided to defend their kill no matter what or displace leopards and tigers. If they succeeded, chances are they would have tried again. Learned behavior.
When wolves or dholes try to defend their kill or try to displace large opponents, they usually use probing attacks. In some conditions, however, they will not hesitate to fight a bear or a large cat.
I recently saw a documentary about a wolf pack in northeastern Italy on the BBC. In late autumn, close to starvation, they killed a large deer. A big male brown bear appropiated the deer, but he wasn't allowed to feed. The alpha male wolf in particular was very aggressive. He took risks, was injured and died some days later. But the bear left after the incident. Self sacrifice? No. Hunger and despair.
Some of you now doubt saw 'Dynasties', also BBC. One episode is about lions. Two young males were close to starting their own business. When out on his own, one of them entered unknown territory. He was met by the clan. Although he was massive, there were too many. When the end seemed near, his mate suddenly appeared out of nowhere. It was a close call.
Could a pack of dholes injure, displace or kill an adult tiger? Today, it's very unlikely. The packs are too small and tigers are bigger than a century ago. During a serious encounter, dholes would be crippled or killed outright.
In different conditions, behavior can change. When a pack close to starvation has to choose between another energy-consuming long hunt, migration or a confrontation, They could opt for a confrontation.
Big cats are very suited for a one-on-one. They have the weapons, the attitude, the experience and, last but not least, can focus like no other animal. The also know how to attack and get the upper hand. Defence, however, is a different story. When attacked by multiple smaller opponents, they would struggle. A wolf or African wild dog will never attack a big cat, but hyenas and dholes have a different attitude. When they have an advantage, anything is possible.
Adult hyenas have a crippling bite, but dholes don't. For this reason, it would take a long time to convince a tiger. Adult male tigers most probably are out of the question, but I'm not so sure about a subadult or a tigress. If a pack has over 20 members, anything is possible. Kenneth Anderson saw dholes corner and attack leopards, hyenas and sloth bears. What I'm saying is nothing should be excluded out of hand.
Today, Ullas Karanth no doubt is right. This, however, doesn't mean that Kenneth Anderson was wrong. Different time and different circumstances. After World War Two, the human population in India exploded and forests quickly disappeared. Big cats always get most attention, but herbivores in particular suffered after the British left. When they had almost disappeared, carnivores followed.
I wonder what it was like in, say, 1850 or 1910. Based on what I read, I'd say India was a completely different place. Not seldom, hunters wondered who would survive the war between big cats and humans. In those conditions, it's unlikely that dholes operated in packs of 5-12 individuals.
e - Hunting
India - Animals hunted by dholes enter a river. Not seldom, dholes drown them:
*This image is copyright of its original author
India - dholes attacking a wild boar:
*This image is copyright of its original author
I agree. This topic is interesting and dholes even surprised me when looking closer. Very interesting animals and history of them and interactions between other animals naturally too. When we are talking about for instance about tigers, leopards and dholes, all seemed to be just fine before humans started at some point "massacres". And biggest victims out of these three were tigers and dholes and looks like to be, that dholes even the biggest.
Then again dogs are (imo) fastest of these species, or at least as fast as any other species to learn new behavior demanded by new situations. Against humans almost nothing is enough naturally, especially not after invention of firearms. But what comes to other wild animals it is a different thing. As I have said before, I am very careful with old sources. Especially if they have been hunters too. I always ask questions, that what reason would he have to exaggerate and what comes to hunters, reason is often obvious. Then another thing is, that can we find evidence from today, which is directly comparable or at least partially comparable. For instance what comes to strength of some animal, it is very easy to compare footage from today and what is told for instance 100-150 years ago. If back then was told, that animal a took a cow and walked away over a mountain and today in footage we can see same animal dragging a cow maybe 20 meters and after that giving up..... somewhat exaggerated example, but should make the point clear.
Animal behavior and what comes to interactions between some animals is another thing. Does it look like, that some person had a "favorite animal"? And does it make it possible, that there is temptation to make that animal look a little bit more, than it was/is... That means, that there is a need to be cautious, but it doesn´t mean, that it can be ignored totally. At least not without careful consideration. What comes to Anderson, I am not sure what reason he might have had to favor maybe dhole in book, or tiger. Anyway it looks like to be so, that he is not the only source for dhole reputation. I think, that despite Anderson dholes have quite strong reputation as species, which are able to hold their ground, even against tigers in some occasions. And this shouldn´t (imo) be understood, that they would do what they want, obviously they pay heavy price if confronting a tiger and usually they back off.
If there are dead tigers, nothing seem to indicate to it, that it would be something common. So far no solid cases proving that. Some possible cases, but it seems to be difficult to find more information, than articles in newspapers without enough information to be sure at this point at least. But even if there would be a few cases, in big picture that is quite insignificant. As said, before human interference these species all thrived. So none of these species have been a major problem to each others. But still it is an interesting issue, at least for some of us who are curious to know more about interaction between tigers and dholes.
So why not trying to find out all information there is. And then again give everyone possibility to look and make their own opinions. Based on all information even though some information, as usual, can be in contradiction. I was very skeptic about Anderson and his stories, but when I now have seen, that even today there are big packs and probably even in sizes he has mentioned, at least sometimes, I can´t ignore what I see in photos just because I have doubts in some other things, what comes to him. Maybe he really witnessed something rare, what many people never have chance to see. There are "once in a lifetime" things in nature. That is no news.
01-17-2019, 05:09 PM( This post was last modified: 01-17-2019, 05:14 PM by Shadow )
This book and sources for information concerning dholes would be interesting to see if someone has more information:
Animals in Stone: Indian Mammals Sculptured Through Time
Author Alexandra van der Geer, publication date 31. October 2008
Here is shortly part of concerning dholes and tigers and then in another photo is source list and there: W. Rice, Tiger Shooting in India: Being an Account of Hunting Experiences on Food in Rajputana During the Hot Seasons from 1850 to 1854 (London: Smith, Elder and Co., 1857)
There seems to be something about dholes and tigers, if someone is familiar with that book? And I think, that everyone know, that nowadays we see leopards to climb to trees when harassed by dholes, but in this case is written about tiger. And there is even footage from Siberia where tiger try to climb on some wooden garage etc. (falling down though) in order to escape hunting dogs. And some footage also tigers climbing trees, so it is not totally impossible scenario for a tiger to do it, even though rare.
The following 1 user Likes Shadow's post:1 user Likes Shadow's post • Rishi
This looks like to be about same thing, which I mentioned in my last posting here, same author, William Rice. Here is quote:
"I was once gravely informed of a case of a pack of wild dogs having so treed a tiger ; while all were jumpingup and baying at him, one of their number happened to stake himself behind on the stalk of some thick"
There is not available a lot of text what comes to this book, which looks like to be "Indian Game" by William Rice and published 1884 by W. H. Allen & Company.
01-17-2019, 08:39 PM( This post was last modified: 01-17-2019, 08:40 PM by Wolverine )
Dholes directly challenge and intimidate a tiger in Satpura NP in this video. The comments are in Hindi, @Rishi what they say? After viewing this video I'm quite convinced that the old stories about pack of dholes attacking tigers are maybe not legends:
01-17-2019, 09:28 PM( This post was last modified: 01-17-2019, 09:31 PM by Shadow )
From this site can be found overall information about dholes and conservation.
What comes to pack sizes here is said, that large pack can have even 25 adult dholes:
"In India, Dholes form relatively large packs (usually five to 10, but up to 25 adults) to efficiently hunt large numbers of prey, as well as to protect litters, which are usually large (usually five to 10, but up to 12 pups; Johnsingh 1982, Venkataraman et al. 1995, Durbin et al. 2004)."
About competition with other species this much:
"Competition with other species: Aside from humans, the main competitors of Dholes for limited resources are Tigers (Panthera tigris) and Leopards (P. pardus). Although Dholes are much smaller in body size, packs of Dholes reportedly have killed both Tigers and Leopards, although the reverse also has been reported (Burton 1940). The dominance hierarchy between Dholes and Tigers is not clear, although Dholes likely avoid tigers especially if packs are small. Dholes appear to be behaviourally dominant over Leopards, and packs of Dholes often tree this species when they interact (Venkataraman 1995). Whether large felids can negatively affect Dhole numbers is unknown, although the exploitive and interference competition between them likely becomes more intense as prey populations are reduced by humans, possibly resulting in spatial exclusion where prey numbers are lowest. Free-ranging dogs also may compete with Dholes for limited food resources where prey numbers are low. "
And then this is in the end:
"Research needs More research is needed on Dholes to better understand their ecology and assist conservation efforts. These include: 1) develop cost-effective surveys to determine the abundance of Dholes, as data on Dhole numbers would allow us to better understand their conservation status; 2) investigate the genetic and morphological differences between the putative northern and southern Dholes, and the distinctiveness of other putative subspecies such as the Sumatran and Javan Dholes; 3) determine the area and prey requirements needed to maintain a viable Dhole population; 4) investigate the effects of disease on Dhole population dynamics, and; 5) investigate effects of Dholes on ecosystems, specifically their interactions with other large carnivores, and their impacts on prey and smaller carnivores. "
01-17-2019, 09:38 PM( This post was last modified: 01-17-2019, 09:42 PM by Rishi )
(01-17-2019, 08:39 PM)Wolverine Wrote: Dholes directly challenge and intimidate a tiger in Satpura NP in this video. The comments are in Hindi, @Rishi what they say? After viewing this video I'm quite convinced that the old stories about pack of dholes attacking tigers are maybe not legends:
The lady says "Dogs were seen trying to hunt tiger" which is clearly incorrect if you see the footage, just another typical sensational bovine-droppings of Indian media.
Another channel had quoted a forest official, who simply quoted the textbook stuff... They taunt & harass tigers... Big packs having been recorded to attack, tree & even kill tigers... etc. etc.
01-17-2019, 10:17 PM( This post was last modified: 01-17-2019, 10:30 PM by Rishi )
(01-17-2019, 09:28 PM)Shadow Wrote: Dholes appear to be behaviourally dominant over Leopards, and packs of Dholes often tree this species when they interact (Venkataraman 1995).
Dholes are completely dominant over leopards. A lone animal would definitely end up dead, but there's almost no exception if a pack is concerned, even small ones. They do coexist (not necessarily) peacefully with the two big cats, if resources aren't tight, but when face off occurs leopards almost always choose to jump up trees to wait for them to get bored, & leave. In both the above documentaries there are multiple footages if i remember correctly.
These educational cartoons are usually the norm...
01-17-2019, 10:23 PM( This post was last modified: 01-17-2019, 10:25 PM by Shadow )
(01-17-2019, 10:17 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(01-17-2019, 09:28 PM)Shadow Wrote: Dholes appear to be behaviourally dominant over Leopards, and packs of Dholes often tree this species when they interact (Venkataraman 1995).
Dholes are completely dominant over leopards. A lone animal would definitely end up dead, but there's almost no exception if a pack is concerned, however small. They do coexist (not necessarily) peacefully with the two big cats, if resources aren't tight, but when face off occurs leopards almost always choose to jump up trees to wait for them to get bored, & leave. In both the above documentaries there are multiple footages if i remember correctly.
This is mentioned in some texts. Here is proof, that dholes do climb to trees also sometimes, not as comfortable there as cats and big cats, but still they can do it.
The low branches allow them to climb high but they'll not be able to climb trees like the Sal Tree for instance since they don't have the claws needed for traction but Dholes are very agile animals regardless
Wild Dog Foundation Dhole pups showing incredible agility on a tree, dhole cannot climb vertically like cats but are known as the "mountain dog" by their latin name which although they exist in varied environments , they are very athletic and nimble
*This image is copyright of its original author
Amal George A Dhole trying to climb a tree for having a langur breakfast !
01-18-2019, 04:29 AM( This post was last modified: 01-18-2019, 04:56 AM by Wolverine )
Despite these small canids look quite innocent, basically as large foxes, no doubt they are formidable, fierce and mercyless hunters. One of the nick-names of the dhole is "mountain wolf" since it also inhabit mountain areas of Tibet and is capable to hunt even in very rocky stiff mountain slopes thats why the dhole is probably the most acrobatic of all canids. A friend of mine described that he was amazed to see in Moscow zoo how a dhole jumped from standing position more than 2 meters high, making few steps on the wall of the cage, reached the roof of the cage with paws, turn upsite down in the air and landed... as a monkey... unbelievable. Probably dholes has developed such a jumping capabilities in order to hunt mountain goats in rough landscapes.
01-18-2019, 12:31 PM( This post was last modified: 01-18-2019, 12:32 PM by Shadow )
(01-18-2019, 08:55 AM)Greatearth Wrote: About tiger and dhole interaction. I think that tiger is defeating dhole pack most of times.
Just look male grizzly bear is fighting against wolf pack in the USA and male lions are defending its pride against hyena pack in the Africa. Why would powerful animal like tiger, which is more powerful/stronger than lion, would defeated by dhole pack? Dhole is seems to be more dangerous when they are with pack. Still, it would be useless if it is prime powerful male tigers. Why would grey wolf is heading extinct where tiger population is rising in the Russian Far East? Howeve,r any situations can happen, I am sure dhole pack can kill tigers if entire dholes fight against tiger to the death. Like this one guy in Tanzania killed leopard without weapon when leopard attacked him fist (I heard this 2~3 months ago). Is it common to see man is defeating leopard with his two hands? 95% leopard will easily crush the adult man.
In general, tiger and dhole pack would leave each other alone. It's the same for other animals like bear and crocodile as well.
This discussion is not so much about it, that dholes would be some major problem for tigers. That is not the point. But it has old reputation, which is still interesting in a way, because it is basically only other carnivore in India, which has been told to challenge tigers time to time and in some cases with success. Considering how small it is as individual it is of course interesting, even if not killing tigers. If some Asian lions would make a tiger to flee, no-one would be surprised. But these dholes are about 20 kg individually and still they even today are seen to circle around tiger keeping terrible noice instead just fleeing.
Now for instance Anderson has been mentioned as one source and his credibility has been questioned. Still Anderson is not the source for dhole reputation, that reputation comes back from 19th century if not even before and in that time India and Asia overall was a very different place. Was then something different maybe, dholes were killed mercilessly by man up to 1970 or something and they were very close to go to extinction, maybe even closer than tigers, so situation overall is quite different than in past. Nowadays if they are making sounds to call others to help, maybe none will come. In past there might have been more possible helpers if packs were bigger in average. It is quite natural to think, that if animal has some intellect, it doesn´t challenge big rival really in small numbers, but when there are many, then situation can change. Hyenas have been seen to challenge and attack even male lions in bigger packs, at least when male lion is alone. 4-5 hyenas don´t dare to try their luck.
Anyway this is interesting topic and we will see what old and new sources can be found. Like have some others than William Rice heard or seen tiger to climb to a tree to get away from dholes? That is something what tigers don´t do usually and Rice mention that, but so far only in few lines. Anyway that kind of observations for sure would explain a lot of dhole reputation. Tiger in tree escaping something back then in 19th century, that kind of story would have been spreading even without social media :)
Can some tigers been killed, why not, they are flesh and blood like any animal and their skin has no armour, so if dholes have been more aggressive sometimes and big pack attacking from all directions, of course tiger will bleed, even while killing many dholes. That is of course possible, question is, that are dholes or have they been really willing to lose so many members from a pack as it takes to injure or kill a tiger, it is clear, that price is heavy, even though dholes are small and agile.
Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
